Scoreboard being a mod is very bad and will lead to worse toxicity eventually. (And what could be done to help counter that)

Warhammer 40,000: Darktide Gameplay Feedback
1

Edit (again): People still dont seem to realize that this is practically the same post I made a few months ago but re structured, with better arguments, and more suggestions directed at FS and their stated concerns. That one is much simpler and easier to understand so just read that if you find the title annoying (keyword is on MOD part not the scoreboard part)/this post too long to follow: Encouraging Teamplay and Scoreboards

Yes the title is a little hyperbolic, perhaps one might say “click bait”. But please hear me out before you jump to any conclusions about this. This is not just about scoreboard, this is mostly about ways the game could improve player interaction and prevent a potentially toxic community. But idk how to title all of this without making the title a mile long so I just went with something eye catching instead.

(Ill just add this at the top here)

TLDR: I am addressing the dev’s concerns regarding “green circle chasing” and anti social behavior in general. I believe removing the scoreboard is a band aid fix to the problems they see, and saying “Just download the mod” as a compromise is EVEN WORSE, as it solves nothing and completely undoes the band aid fix in the first place. These are my suggestions to actually address the problems the dev’s are concerned about.

Disclaimer:

First off. I’m not a psychologist but I have genuinely tried to hear out every reasonable argument given out by everyone, along with extensive experience with multiple games that have serious “toxic” player bases (Over ten thousand hours between Warthunder, CS2, Foxhole, R6, TF2, NS2, Overwatch. And a decent bit of experience with Vermintide). I don’t think that gives me any authority but I think that at least lets me identify some trends and see multiple ways that different dev teams have tried to address toxicity, and how effective they are.

Introduction

Now I know this is a long running discussion since VT2 days, and I have made a semi similar post in the past. But I don’t see many people saying this and I really think its a big issue with the “official” stance on this (and I think I can do this post a lot better now). Let me lead with this: I think implementing the scoreboard mod as is, into the game officially would be a bad idea, especially in the long run. And the mod compromise is worse.

Now with that out of the way, please give me a chance to explain why its existence as a mod as a compromise solution is worse, and hear out my suggestions on what can be done to potentially fix this, or in general make improvements to the game that would hopefully put the game on a better course long-term.

The Issues With the Scoreboard Mod

Scoreboard mod is the exact thing people complained about in VT2. Also the exact people who caused the toxicity in VT2, are the same people who would go out of their way to download a scoreboard mod so that they can be toxic.

This may not be a issue now as the game is still fairly saturated with casual players (just like VT2 early on, there weren’t issues with the scoreboard there either early on), and the general vibe of the player base has not become veteran elitist players. With time the player base will always trend towards that, that is just how videogame player bases work. Darktide has more time as its mechanics are easier to pick up and its catering to the much larger 40k fanbase.

As the player base shrinks, it will also become more and more anti new player and just generally elitist or “toxic”. Now eventually we will have a veteran player base that is heavily invested in the game and is focused on skill expression… Yeah the percentage of scoreboard mod users will only increase, and eventually we will end up with the exact same situation as in VT2, where it becomes exponentially harder for new players to be accepted by the veteran player base, and the same issue with people using a scoreboard as a genital measuring contest… Except worse because now you have these people yelling at new players for not having a mod installed.

Scoreboard mod is not a good compromise solution it is only delaying the inevitable, and will likely lead to worse experiences in the long run. Its just adding another issue with having a scoreboard without fixing the old one very well.

Potential Solutions to Direct the Games Future into a More Positive Direction

Just a few ideas taken from other games that I think would work very well here.

Generally Improving Player Interaction/Removing Barriers to Making Friendly Connections

I think Darktide can take hints from multiple games that do player interaction so much better such as SM2, HD2, hell even Warthunder.

The Post Mission Screen And Post Mission Interaction

The end screen should be extended to a 10 minute max timer. You can leave at any time anyways so I don’t see why it should be this short. A lot of my post game conversations have been cut short by the lobby being closed too fast, then going through the effort of going into the social menu and finding the person, just to send them a friend request and then invite them to a squad, and then continue talking. Its such a big barrier of entry that it basically never happens.

The Way Squads Work

I really think you should remain in your squad by default. It should not be a choice to merge squads that should be the default and the choice should be to leave. Removing barriers from interaction just encourages people to do so, even asking for a single button click to optionally engage with others is a big ask and feels awkward (seriously have you ever seen anyone press E to merge strike teams?).

The game should then put remaining players back into quick play immediately (or maelstrom if they had selected a maelstrom mission). None of this should be forced, you should be able to press decline at any time to be put back to the hub by yourself. But if you press space it should ready you to go back into quick play/maelstrom que with the remaining players in the squad.

Making Connections Easier

Simply: Direct message. This might be a little controversial but from my experience in Warthunder this is more often used in a positive way even though Warthunder is one of the most hostile, selfish, and toxic communities on the planet. Being able to open social and then direct message someone should just always be a option. Of course you can ban toxic players from using this function. But genuinely most of my friends I have met through getting a direct message on Warthunder. The community here is significantly nicer so I think it is reasonably safe to add.

Another thing is you should be able to add someone as a friend directly from the end mission screen rather then opening a social menu. One click that makes a popup on their screen with a yes or no button.

About Commendation Systems

This is one of the best ways to encourage constructive behavior by far. There are two good examples of this from games I have played extensively, and I think they make a pretty good argument for the merit of a commendation system.

1: Foxhole

Foxhole has its issues with toxicity at times. However I think its system of rewarding teamplay is genius and is one of the core reasons why the game is at all successful. Without it I don’t think anywhere near as many people would do logistics and the entire thing would collapse.

In foxhole when someone does something helpful, such as revive you or deliver supplies to a base a popup comes at the corner of your screen allowing you to commend them. This system is directly tied to your rank in game and is used as a status symbol. How good you are with teamplay and making people like you is directly tied to your overall social status, and is a extremely strong motivator in all of my experience.

2: Overwatch

Overwatch for a long time was one of the most positive and accepting communities where all roles were valued and appreciated. This fell off a cliff overtime as the game became more competitive, but that is more due to frustration and it being a PvP game. So I still think there are lessons to be had here, and I definitely feel like the commendation system is one of the better choices made there.

In Overwatch at the end of the game you are presented a few options of people who have done notable things, and given the option to commend them. Notably this tracks things such as healing, damage blocked, objective contribution, and so on. With kills and damage being valued significantly lower.

Implementing a Commendation System into Darktide

This could be a little tricky but I think we can take notes from the two games mentioned above.

Firstly, I think before rewards for the mission or anything like that are shown, you should be shown a screen with something notable done by each player. This can include damage/kills but this should be the lowest priority or just not included at all. These should be things that are team focused first.

On this screen you should have the option to commend the player (this could either be 1 commend per mission like overwatch, or you have a set amount of commends per hour more similar to foxhole). Receiving these commendations should be then tied to penances that reward titles/profile frames/resources/ranks/maybe even cosmetics.

And of course if this is all too complicated you could always just make it possible to commend people at the end of a mission without giving any additional information. Just as a “thanks” to people who you think played well. A little chat notification for who commended you could also be nice.

Ideas for rewards

Resources:

Every time you get a commendation you get 100 plasteel and 20 diamantine. This can scale based on mission difficulty but I think that is a decent base line for a decent bonus

Ranks:

A rough idea, but something that could work to act as a status symbol similar to how they work in foxhole. At the end of your name you would have a rank. For instance “Jimbo .pvt” or “Bob .cpt”. This will level up with your total amount of commendations received, with high ranks being exponentially harder to get. Something like 1 for .pvt, 50 for .sgt, up to 5000 for .fm (field marshal).

Also it does sorta make sense for the rejects to be assigned ranks. Obviously more of a thing for Scions but given rejects aren’t really just rejects anymore, and the warband has expanded into being more of a large scale joint military unit… Yeah I think it checks out. All of the mission givers would still out rank all the rejects. Commissar because she is a Commissar (a little shaky ill admit), and the rest because they are actually fully in the inquisition.

Titles:

  • “Team Player” Received for being commended 100 times for completing mission objectives
  • “Savior” Received for being commended 100 times for reviving/saving the most team mates
  • “Virtuous” Received for being commended 100 times for buffing team mates with auras
  • “Slayer” Received for being commended 100 times for boss damage (boss damage is almost always beneficial and its kind of impossible to chase boss damage)

I’m sure people could think up more and more interesting titles maybe even having tiers to them with the top one requiring 1000 commends for like “Living Saint” or something.

Ideas for things that could be tracked

  • Most Revives (revive “assists” would also be nice where players near a reviving player also get some bonus, such as a revive assist counting as 0.5 revives)

  • Most Rescues (nets, dog pounces, mutant grabs, maybe also if a sniper is aiming at a different team member and you kill them)

  • Enemies staggered

  • Mission objectives done

  • Coherency efficiency

  • Toughness generated

  • Enemies Marked First (It will have to be only for specialists and/or “high priority” targets such as reapers, to avoid spam pinging, and likely either a cooldown or only once per group of specialist spawns for missions where numerous of the same specialists spawn at the same time)

  • Attacks/Damage blocked (not just blocking melee attacks but also things such as psyker bubble and ogryn shield)

  • Resources shared (this would require a small rework to the current pickup system, but say you could “store” ammo packs and then gift them to other players like you can give players stims. This means that mobile/stealth classes who can run forward can also pick up resources and then have a incentive to return to the team to share them. Limiting this to something like 4 small ammo packs and 1 large ammo pack in your inventory would prevent this from just being just infinite ammo capacity)

  • Team damage increased (Such as veteran tag target)

  • Cool downs reduced

Why Should we Have Any Sort of Score Tracking?

I just think some form of less harmful score tracking could at least lower the use of more harmful score tracking. There will always be the toxic elitist type, but that type of person is already/will be using the scoreboard mod. A better system might be enough of a barrier to at least lower the number of people who go that far.

When someone can say “Well I can already track my score in game why do I need a mod that’s going to crash my game and break with every update?”, that person will not download the mod and then not get annoyed by someone on their team doing like 50k damage or something. This just makes it less likely for people to become that type of player.

Giving People the Stats they Want in the Least Harmful Way Possible While Still Being Better then the Mod

This is something that has been addressed multiple times by many people across emperor knows how many threads. I think the best you can do is a screen you can open in the hub that shows you your previous games, only shows your stats and a team total to compare against. No player names, only your own stats and team total. This still gives the satisfaction of seeing that your doing well while removing most of the incentive to trash other people’s performance. (Obviously this isn’t perfect and will effect player behavior regardless, but I think it will be less harmful then the mod).

This should ideally be better then the scoreboard mod to encourage people to use it. Ways that you could do that are:

  • Give a more accurate break down of stats, such as. “You delt 600k damage, 33k came from this perk, 45k came from that blessing. Etc” or “You regenerated 9000 toughness, 2000 came from cohesion, 500 came from this talent. Etc”.
  • Give a average of your last 10 games (or maybe something like last 2 hours of combat calculated by ignoring time spent on tasks such as carrying batteries, and only counting time during spawn waves), maybe also a screen where you can compare your performances in various ways between your builds.

These two things alone are already enough to blow the scoreboard mod out of the water and at least give a better alternative that may steer some people towards that instead. There is much more you can do with this. I might make a whole post about that. But many people have already done that and I don’t want to make this post too long.

Conclusions

In general I think removing the scoreboard is a band aid fix that will do little in the long term, without at least some other improvements to the social experience of this game. The mod existing just doubles down on that. These are my best attempts at suggestions things that may improve the game’s long term health while also pleasing both the pro scoreboard crowd’s demands and the anti scoreboard crowd’s concerns.

Of course compromise solutions will never please everyone. I’m sure there will be a decent few people who see this and just yell “Just add the scoreboard you idiots”, and the same thing for the other side who are vehemently against any sort of stats for fears of the VT2 situation. I hope people can see that some form of better compromise is possible here. (Also please that argument has been had about 2 billion times now, we don’t need another one here).

I don’t think these suggestions are perfect. I don’t expect anyone who reads this to think they are perfect. But if you think anything here is a good idea then please do like, share, and comment to maybe give something here a 1% chance of being heard by someone important. Of course criticism is highly valued and I will edit this post as people poke holes in it to hopefully refine it. Please be constructive!

Thank you for attending my TED talk (if you somehow managed to read this entire thing)

Voting:

Voting Booth (because why not)

Please don’t vote on something without reading its respective section in this post.

Do you think the current scoreboard mod is/could become a problem? (Similar to VT2 situation given enough time. Please note this is not advocating for a ban)

  • Yes
  • Maybe In the Future
  • No
  • Indifferent
0 voters

Do you think the post mission screen should be longer?(To allow for more interaction. Of course instantly skipping it should always be a option)

  • Yes
  • No
  • Indifferent
0 voters

Do you like the idea of a in hub score system as described in this post?

  • Yes (Id appreciate its inclusion)
  • Yes (I wont use it, but I think its better then the scoreboard mod compromise)
  • No
  • Indifferent
0 voters

Should you automatically remain in your squad post mission (Option to instantly leave after a mission remaining in the squad would not be forced)

  • Yes
  • No
  • Indifferent
0 voters

Do you like the idea of being able to immediately que into quickplay/maelstrom que from the end mission screen

  • Yes (and remain in current squad)
  • Yes (normal quickplay/you don’t remain with same people by default)
  • No
  • Indifferent
0 voters

Would you like a in game direct message system?

  • Yes
  • No
  • Indifferent
0 voters

Do you like the idea of a commendation system?

  • Yes (Like Overwatch)
  • Yes (Like Foxhole)
  • Yes (Both)
  • No
  • Indifferent
0 voters

If answered yes above: What rewards would you want from this system?

  • Materials (Plasteel/Diamantine)
  • Title (Normal in game title like “Team Player”)
  • Profile Frame
  • Cosmetics
  • Rank (Rank name after your name such as “Bob .cpt”)
0 voters
2

1000+ hours in VT2, 3000+ hours in DT. I ran into ONE person who tried to use scoreboard data to prove to others present in that match they were under-performing. He was laughed out the room. I ran into hundreds of cases where scoreboard data enlightened me about whatever my new build is doing what I expect it to do or whatever a specific talent or blessing proves itself worthy during an actual mission.

There is NOTHING toxic about scoreboard data itself. The only concern I would have is whatever mods like scoreboard influence client and servers performance, if at all. I say it without much knowledge about how scoreboard mods data is accumulated.

Could the official summary screen use some improvements, to entice players to do better, and feel them witnessed for whatever they have done well? Sure. Could match coop experience be a bit less transactional and actually encourage grouping up with the same people again. Absolutely.

18 Likes
3

Just add a scoreboard with useful stats.

7 Likes
4

in one aspect only and that being solo mode, with or without bots by choice.

the moment I could opt for these I never bothered even 1 second bickering who’s gonna pick which class cause I don’t give a flying :fu: when I can do it perfectly on my own.

now why should stuff be tracked that makes the game easier for “other players” rather than what I’ve put in and strive to excell at?

why shouldn’t they bring themselves “up to snuff” without having to rely on others?

yes we run towards the same exit

no that doesn’t make us a “team” especially if you play with randoms only you don’t know from atom.

don’t screw each other over on purpose and the coop part is more than fulfilled.

everything else belongs in a premade where you truly “like” the people that are present, not be indifferent at best.

harmful?

last time someone outplayed me I took it as incentive to clench my asscheeks and improve.

what harm?

were people playing darktide around when early 2000s lobbies were a thing?

nowadays its “harmful” to show if someone played way worse than the rest?

2 Likes
5

Mythical scoreboard toxicity strikes again.

14 Likes
6

Third party scoreboards tend to be relatively performance heavy compared to other mods, depending on how many metrics they report and how complicated it is to detect the stuff they need.

This concern, plus any issue with accuracy, disappears if the scoreboard is official and managed server-side.

3 Likes
7

The game will die from its own death rolls rather than people getting more toxic due to scoreboard. There is soo much favor for the 40k universe that people are and will move on.

I will always come back to darktide (on content releases) so I honestly think the game is at a point where the majority do not really care, and the toxic minority has been replaced with a majority of complacency/acceptance.

The devs have already began hitting the nail in this titles coffin with their remarks in the past (specifically telling the fans they are content with players coming back on content drops,).

I think the passion behind darktide, the devs that still care, will show their labor of love in time (5 year anniversary).

As far as a solution for scoreboard, from someone who supports console PoV and Vanilla Steam player, my post from 2023 a month after launch still stand as something I would love to see in the game.

2 Likes
8

It seems like you just don’t care about teamplay. That is perfectly fine! However that is not what the developers are aiming for. I’m offering suggestions for ways the devs could improve the game according to their goals.

But yes I do think there should be a solo mode for people who wish to just play by themselves.

1 Like
9

Yes I know. I have never had issues with it personally. HOWEVER, just chat toxicity isnt the point. The devs think that the scoreboard alters player’s behaviour in a negative way “green circle chasing”. They have their data and reports, I’m arguing against them in good faith rather then calling them liars.

10

Yes I know. I have never had issues with it personally (I also use the mod). HOWEVER, just chat toxicity isnt the point. The devs think that the scoreboard alters player’s behaviour in a negative way “green circle chasing”. They have their data and reports, I’m arguing against them in good faith rather then calling them liars.

11

you sure about that?

the only mode that forces people to even react to each others decisions is ham fisted through havoc modifiers, while auric maelstrom is a rat race to who clears a room first in order to even “play” the game rather than spectate.

so i can choose between

a) a turtle mode crawl through arbitrary numbers and debuffs stacked against a single player hence forcing the attention of multiple at a given task

or

b) fight 3 other players for the right to kill some enemies cause somewhere along the way fatshark mistook the game for diablo-esque demigod mode where you kill stuff not by the numbers but the metric :poop: ton at current power level.

guess tyranids would have a field day with all the biomass created every other room :man_shrugging:

“teamplay” is earned

cooperation is a “given”

someone proves to be on common ground and play accordingly, I got his back and “support” by action.

the current scum scurrying off in the far distance can bet his ass the race is on and I do everything to get “moah kills” by just competing.

that in itself aint even “harmful” since it lifts pressure of the lesser skilled players by doing “their share” and then some.

arguably more “helpful” than them struggling and potentially wasting resources which could be put to better use in more capable hands.

teamplay would require 4 dudes on the same page, discord, a plan and the willingness to put back ego.

aka friends, not strangers or “aquaintances” since who plays the game and doesn’t want to look good while doing so?

I doubt someone logs in and says to himself :”hey. Let’s play mediocre today”

even dating back to the days of atari and c64 I never played a game and not wanted to be “better”

numbers dont affect ambition, they merely prove progress or stagnation

2 Likes
12

Their stated goal is to make darktide a team focused game yes. How well they are doing at that is up for debate and you are free to your own take on that.

Devs want to encourage teamplay over individual skill expression. That is why the scoreboard was removed, to counter “green circle chasing”. (Please note I do use the scoreboard mod to improve my gameplay and believe some form of score tracking is very benifitial to skill growth, however the devs clearly have concerns over including stats in the game like a standard scoreboard. I am adressing those concerns)

I generally believe better teamplay would be better gotten to through social features. Yes there is a discussion to be had about game balance. But if it was easier for like minded players of similar skill levels to stay together then ideally they will always be going at the highest difficulty they can handle, and so requiring teamwork as the devs intend. That is my main argument here.

Of course people will often stick to a lower difficulty and just wipe it with no teamplay regardless. But you cant full change that.

1 Like
13

here’s the catch:

as much as I sometimes vent every course known to human language at the sight of how novel a random player can fkk up, in a way not seen before or a situation that isn’t even worth looking back,

it’s those moments that keep darktide fresh for me.

maybe I could get two other german speaking dudes with the same “sweat level” to play the game.

but doing havoc 40 on repeat isn’t the issue, did it so far with randoms only.

it’s when a repeatable cycle forms itself that stuff becomes stale for me, hence I crave the odd scum or psyker trying to go ham and create situations that are “unsafe”, so it doesnt become routine.

if I had the same dudes, doing the same things with the same prognosis of the outcome, where’d be the excitement in that?

today I was outdamaged by psykers blue brrrt and arbi respectively, but not “outplayed”

the scoreboard didn’t need to be there in order to not let them gobble up the whole buffet :grinning_face_with_smiling_eyes:

but it was a nice reminder some talents and classes need to put in less effort to net more kills/impact on an encounter.

as long as I gave my all in terms of physical input, I am far more than content.

2 Likes
14

Toxicity was just a lazy excuse devs invented cause the game was released half baked.

Without scoreboard people have no tool to defend themselves from “deadweight” accusation.

“Pee pee poo poo we have no chat in the game cause people will talk mean things, use mods”.

DT basicaly was saved by the modding community with all of the QoL features, including crucial ones like reroll till rarity.

Make scoreboard on/off toggable in settings for those who are too fragile, simple as is.

7 Likes
15

Holy kark, you put in a lot of work to this thread. I am level 1600 on my vet, I’ve never met anyone who has said a single world about the scoreboard, other than to congratulate someone who did well.

I only use the scoreboard as a personal metric to see how I’m doing with a build versus others. I’ve never seen any shaming in all my time.

3 Likes
16

They can just turn it off by default.

2 Likes
17

I kind of get where you are coming from. But there are other ways you can mix up your gameplay in more enjoyable ways. Switching classes/trying new builds etc.

Also I don’t think anything I suggested would really impact your way of enjoying the game regardless, so I’m not sure why/if you have a problem with anything I suggested?

18

in that regard we evolve backwards.

sure, trashtalk is either “funny” or annoying but to let words on a screen have any effect?

anyone played beat em ups in a mall back in the day and tempers sometimes really flew off the handle?

faintly remember a mortal kombat match that “continued” outside :laughing:

and even those stuff didn’t kill nobody, maybe some bruised ego but that was it.

a filter in a chat… that was “1984” stuff for the weak if anything when it would have been mentioned back then

2 Likes
19

That’s just not going to happen. Hence why I only suggest a in hub slightly abstract version of score tracking that is still (and arguably more) useful to people’

Yeah unfortunately that’s pretty much unavoidable. But clearly the dev’s think that is less of a problem then “green circle chasing”.

20

nah, aint got an issue, forums there for discussions after all.

I’m just a strong proponent of “anything goes” when it comes to mere player interaction as opposed to “filters”, “good behavior” enforcement etc.

someone being an utter cnt, ignore him.

someone doing stuff in a pleasant way :+1:

but everything should be genuine and not “guided” into a place with padded walls.

truth be told I prefer the genuine ahole over the acting “nice guy”

4 Likes