Recruit Level

Hi there,

I am not an unexperienced Gamer but after 8 runs and the whole team always dying before the end I would say recruit level is way too harsh. You want to have a big playerbase?

Then let the customers who buy new your game have this good experience and win atleast one out of 3 “Easy” missions.

Otherwise frustation will win and most players will wander to the next game.

Just my mind.

3 Likes

Issue is, it’s pretty tough for when your power level is low and easy once it’s high. The bigger issue is that if you’re new to the game not only will your power level be 0 but you’ll… well be not very good at it either. You’ve got a lot to learn while playing the hardest possible way on the starting difficulty.

I do think it needs a tiny tweak but not sure how.

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Give players a special starting kit style chest with a couple halfway decent weapons after losing their first match. Gives them a taste of what’s to come while giving them some simple options so they can try a weapon they might enjoy more.

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I didn’t have too much trouble with recruit myself, but to be fair I’m also a vermintide 1 veteran with at least 250 horus logged and all my cataclysm wins. I’ve been through the ringer enough to be decent with dodging, blocking, and so on. It helps a lot. I’ve also learned to be frugal with my resources, often saving healing until after someone has been revived to take them out of wounded state. Not knowing a lot of this is gonna make things feel pretty brutal for new people, and if everyone in the match is playing for their first time, it’s gonna be pretty rough.

actually seems like a decent idea… maybe even some more in depth tutorials outside of the prologue just for them to practice blocking and dodging or something. sort of a fight pit outside of normal missions to work on their skills against certain enemy types.

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Seems good to me. I think there’s room for as much in the keep. Heck, they could get some sort of generic chest for beating the prologue even, totally forgot about that. Just having some options for weapons would go a log ways, I tend to do a lot better with some weapons than others, and I just happen to have certain preferences of my own, being denied that option was to me about the worst thing about starting over again.

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I think every new class should start off with their weapon blueprints(those power level 5 weapons) available at least, so people can experiment on what suits their playstyle better. I have friends thinking you’re locked to one type of weapon when they first picked up Vermintide 2.

Maybe even for recruit levels; they should adjust the game director to accomodate players who haven’t clocked in x amount of hours and sort of babysit them for a 2-3 runs (maybe not throw a boss and specials at the same time)?

If it’s veteran, maybe just hand them some lube.

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Yeah I agree.

I’ve been PC gaming for over 20 years now. I know my mechanical skills aren’t what they used to be (job instead of just gaming ugh), but I do know what I’m doing with a mouse in my hand. I’ve played left4dead and other squad based shooters and finished several dark souls games. I did some reading on the forums, and I like to be smart in games like this one. So in short: not a random ragepost

Now, I’ve done about 20 missions or so. And out of all those attempts, I’ve only completed 1. A hard game is fun, sure, but this is too much and I’m very close to just deleting the game before even reaching lvl 10. I’m pretty sure many people will agree, and this will not help the game build a solid player core. It needs new people to stick around. In my opinion, the entry into this game is just too hard, and not in a fun way. (like darksouls).

I really really want to like this game, but I’m having a hard time here. Perhaps lowering the difficulty level on the lowest setting, or adding an even easier level to get the most basic of gear could help a lot. 2 things I’ve found to be a problem that whipe teams. Something REALLY needs to be tweaked, as I’m not sure how long I’ll enjoy this game at this rate, and I’m sure many other people feel the same way.

Now for the constructive part: 2 things I know will help the lower levels:

  • Low HP is a huge problem
    Being stuck on 0 hp and dying to a fart is fun to no-one. For the new rambo style players, there will obviously never be enough HP, but after loosing 10x and being carefull etc, this still tends to be a problem. Easiest fix would be seed more HP potions/items on the lowest level. Something else would be something like everyone can regenerate to 25%, and the ranger to 75% on the lowest setting. That last option would change one of the core mechanics, so I’m not too sure how that would fly with the community to be honest.

  • Some of the special units right now are perhaps a tad too much
    Had some wizzard force choking me from behind a wall 30meters away, my team couldn’t do anything because he was not in sight. If this was a bug then ohwell, but if not then having something like this that cannot be countered is not fun.
    Oh yeah, this was during a boss. Having a wizzard making tornado’s during a rat ogre fight really is too much for level 3 people :). To be honest, these guys to me are the right kind of difficult, as they CAN be worked around by being a bit smarter than my average teammate. But for the newest player on the lowest level it’s a tad too much now and it tends to whipe parties. Something to think about.

cheers

4 Likes

hit me up on steam. If i’m around i’d be willing to help you get through a few missions to help you increase your hero power. once you get that up a bit it helps a lot.

1 Like

Hi there again,
thats totally what I thought also:

  • Raise health potions and medipacks on recruit level
  • lower random Bosses like Ogres and Trolls
  • raise starting gear from 5 to 10 for all classes
  • reduce finding higher gear loot so faming will be less

Guess this will help alot the playerbase.

(I play PC Games since 1986…)

1 Like

The quantity of health in recruit is really quite high. There’s really not even many preset places in the maps that don’t have some sort of item in them, I’m not even sure where the additional health would be placed.

How often are you using them? Generally you shouldn’t be using them until you are extremely low, ideally below 25%, and if that still isn’t lasting long enough, wait until after getting revived first, a medkit will convert the grey health to green and give you just that little bit extra health to work with.

Bosses are rough, my group typically stock piles our potions and bombs specifically for them, but once you get a hang of it they are some of the best fights in the game.

Raising starting gear by 5 probably won’t do a whole lot. Getting some choices in weapons so you can find one that suits you best will probably do a lot more to help your surviveability. If you can’t get used to a certain weapon’s attack pattern or properties (things like reach, damage, stagger/knock back, attack rate), you’re going to have a hard time surviving.

1 Like

I don’t think recruit should be made easier. The training arena idea is great, providing things to help new players is always a good idea. An easily acessible tutorial, a mentor system, anything to support new players is always welcome. But the game does not need to be any easier. It would create more bad habits than are already present in the current itteration of the game.

This is based on personal experience. Im not a serious V1 player, I have it but it didn’t interest me all that much so I never left the initial difficulty there and have no residual skill to speak of. I came into recruit and fell in love with the difficulty. It felt true to the Warhammer universe and was fun because i saw nothing but room to improve. It made completing a mission that much more rewarding. My biggest problem is that I’m an elf main and the HP regen she had crippled me. It created horrific habits that I had to break. My brother who’s a sienna main claimed my gameplay to be suicidal in his eyes because the regen supported it. But as we got to higher difficulties the tides changes, he was to one constantly reviving me. Because my early game crutch made the game easier I came out a worse player than him. And making recruit easier would be no different.

2 Likes

Power isn’t power.
It’s not linear. From what I remember, the base of calculation is probably 20, and until you reach 70 hero power your actual power is higher then listed. This is from Beta, and might have been changed drastically.
There was also a bump of effective power once you reached 200, evening out at 300, and then above 400 it was worth half or something.
That intro aside, those multipliers could be tweaked. They could very well make shown power worth half below 100, then add 50 (just a quick example), so that new players would have somewhat more power. Because I can see the game being very hard at the start when everyone has low level gear and most players are less skilled then the bots. Then again, a single good player in the team elevates the whole party dramatically. I am unsure of how to fix this - it’s a teamplay game where mistakes can propagate just as much as good decisions. But I certainly think it’s silly that the game is actually harder on the first levels.

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The OP is in the minority, by his logic Nioh and the Soulsborne games would be huge flops because they are slightly difficult.

Also, by his logic, him and the few people who are really bad players are the majority of the customers; as VT1 showed this, this is completely wrong, the loyal customer base plays nightmare and cataclysm difficulty.

So actually listening to him and make the game even easier would just make Fatshark lose more customers.

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@Eins: Tell me then where the difficulty sliders the Soulsborne games are. If Vermintide only had one difficulty, this whole discussion would not be happening.

Recruit Bosses have too much health and deal too much damage. I’ve played VT1 a good deal, but the troll and the Spawn of Chaos are sometimes too much for an inexperienced team. Against the normal enemies Recruit is tuned just fine.

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Honestly I think the difficulty is 100% fine, and I say that as someone with zero vermintide 1 experience. Why is it fine? Because I’m a cautious player and I researched a little about the mechanics before I jumped in.

So in my humble opinion I think instead of all this the game just needs to strongly suggest players finish the tutorial mission and perhaps allow repeatable training scenarios in the keep where players can do smaller recruit / veteran / champion training exercises on how to better block, dodge, and react to elites.

The players who fail 10 times in a row are, in my opinion, just going into the game with the wrong mentality for how to play. They fail to realize how important blocking, dodging, and most importantly - peeling elites and staying together is.

There isn’t much that should be done to make things easier if players choose to skip the tutorial and not learn from their mistakes imho. I for one am kind of sick of the mentality that players seem to have now adays where they feel entitled to a win. To me, good games offer a challenge and I for one found it refreshing to deal with the learning curve this game offers.

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@Rehk, Recruit difficulty is there for people who just want to enjoy the game without suffering many losses in a row and getting barely any reward.

Great, you researched beforehand, maybe even had team members who did the same, but a completely inexperienced team who just wanted to slaughter some rats is going to have a difficult time, simply because the game does not give you enough information on its mechanics. Patrols are maybe always engaged, bosses are too unforgiving if the DPS is not high enough, heals are wasted etc.

For those who seek a greater challenge, well, the higher difficulties are there for you. Recruit should be, as the name implies, for complete beginners who need to become familiar with the game before stepping up to higher difficulties if the players so desire.

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Is that what it’s for? Is that the developers stated intention of the difficulty mode? I kind of question that.

I also question the idea the game doesn’t give you enough information on the mechanics. The game has a perfectly adequate tutorial. I think a big part of the problem might just be people are accustomed to skipping them, thinking it a waste of time.

I simply don’t agree there should be a mode for people who should expect to have zero knowledge and expect to win. To me, all games of this type that are PvE in nature should be tuned for players to have to work for the win, not have it handed to them.

Recruit mode isn’t the tutorial. If people need to learn mechanics - that’s where that should take place. If people are completing the tutorial and still failing, then perhaps the tutorial needs to do a better job of teaching the skills…but recruit mode shouldn’t just be free wins for complete casuals.

Ultimately, we probably just have a fundamental disagreement about what makes a good PvE game. To me, even the easiest mode should be something people actually feel like they need to try at to overcome, not something that’s just a walk in the park.

To me, the addition of these “gimmie” modes that are dumbed down so every single person can feel like they are winners is part of what has been responsible for the decline in quality of games.

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Totally agree… Recruit is for beginners… Maybe even only allow random bosses like once out of 10 games.
Even then without them the game is still hard for absolute beginners.

The tutorial is easy aka recruit level … and every beginner loves this… but then playing first mission this feels like you changed to hardcore already

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Not trying to completely disagree with you here, but there’s things aplenty the game doesn’t tell you about.
The overheat mechanic of siennas staves isn’t explained in all that much detail. The fact that you can cool it down with R, and when it costs how much life isn’t obviously communicated as well; At least, I’ve had to explain that already, so if it is explained, people can miss it.
Then there’s things like block-revive, that the game doesn’t tell you anything about, yet it is absolutely vital in combat.
And while experienced players know that you can dodge a Packmaster sideways, but not backwards (assuming you are facing it), new players would have to find that out at random - and there’s not too many opportunities to train.

Who knows, maybe we just need a tutorial overlay as a sort of “deed” players can activate.

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These are good points, but again don’t you think the answer is perhaps more or better tutorials instead of changing the recruit difficulty? Because if you change the recruit difficulty all you’re really doing is setting them up for a curve thats too steep going from a nerfed recruit to veteran.

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