You’re forgetting diminishing returns for that 10% being on top of like +60% you already have from Ult, swift slaying, and passive. Assuming additive math (it might be a curve I dunno) and no attack speed properties 10% attack speed would be like a 6.3% DPS increase, less if you’re also stacking attack speed on gear.
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I just checked, you have right, attack speed modifiers are additive, so the two talents provide roughly the same damage increase.
Dont revert it as soon as jav has same breakpoints like the longbow, the longbow will be outclassed by the jav.
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To be honest, it actually already is if what one values is the infinite ammo aspect, i have been playing Slayer&Pyro for a while now and i do not think i´ve seen more than 1 elf use longbows over javs. A few moonbows.
Giving the javs enough damage to OSHS a stormvermin with “only” 20% power vs (instead of 40% + EP) or such wont really make a big difference i think? Except for the users comfort.
“Edit”
Alright, have seen more longbows than moonbow for a time now, forgot to edit this earlier.
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On paper, I can see that reasoing. I wouldn’t say these talents have quite the same value in practice however.
You don’t really need or want more attack speed on 1h weapons on Slayer, you want more damage - crits give you that.
Especially since more crits reduce hits to kill (e.g. going from 2 hits to kill down to 1 hit to kill due to a crit massively increases clear speed - in that example you’re getting a 100% faster time to kill as it literally doubles your kill speed, while attack speed is only a flat increase of 10% attack speed).
This overlap is why I would prefer to remove the infinite ammo aspect on the javelins and make them more distinct, e.g. hard hitting with lots of cleave but limited ammo and shorter range.
Keep the reload and make it like Brace of Pistols and just pretend you have to “reload” the quiver if the devs really want to keep the animation for it.
While I would not agree that javs are better than longbow atm, the overlap and the spammability of javs due to unlimited ammo cause a situation where 1 of the 2 weapons (3! weapons even as Moonfire bow serves the exact same purpose atm) will be better than the others since they all compete for the same niche (single target ranged weapon).
As stated in the original post, making:
- Longbow the precision long range tool with medium ammo
- Javelins the mid range high damage option with severely limited ammo
- Moonfire the aoe tool with low single target damage, like a weaker Hagbane (because you cannot run Hagbane on anything but WS, so MfB would not step on Hagbane’s role and would be like Sienna or Bardin flame weapons for 3 out of 4 elf classes.
This would open up more builds due to the ranged weapon providing some aoe, a niche that does not exist for 75% of elf classes atm).
Infinite ammo weapons are a pain to balance if they directly compete with ammo based weapons of the same type and should therefore have a different role/niche to fill.
Just make all these dlc weapons more interesting, the game really does not benefit from adding multiple flavors of the same weapon archetype that end up making the others of its type less relevant/interesting.
The difference between 5% and 10% critical chance affect every 20th hit. I strongly doubt you can recognize the difference during the play.
6-7% extra damage is comparable to Zealots Unbending purpose that adds 5% power and everybody considers it useless.
And no, not all critical attacks mean instant kill. Sometimes they do, other times they don’t. In some cases they kill even without a crit so the crit is “wasted”.
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The difference that the extra 10% crit makes is really huge when it comes to killing elites using something like dual axes since you wont be able to utilize too much attackspeed, you will be blocking and dodging and have enough to do so easily anyway.
Fewer hits to kill a target though, that is big.
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Longbow aside as it is fine, how does “severely limiting” ammo on javs do anything but ensure that its another weapon only WS can use? And might not even wana use considering she already has swiftbow&hagbane for the same deal? Or even, ensure it doesnt cause the same problem with them?
Reworking moonbow tho…nearly anything´s gotta be better than now x)
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Yep. Moonbow should increase ammo(energy). It’s not enough for cata&cata TW.
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Cata with more specials + vanguard as duo with bots. I have played shade with moonfirebow.
I dont see the need for more energy.
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Crit chance is pseudo-random in VT2. Every attack that doesn’t crit increases the chance that the next attack will.
If they gave it low aimpunch, it would let it be used in a BoP like manner, which is a niche Kerillian lacks.
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If playing Waystalker the statement applies! I wana shoot both elites and specials!
I could settle for letting her passive ammo boost work somehow rather than outright just smashing the default up though.
Aimpunch? Does BoP aimed shots have better penetration than hipfire…? oops.
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Well that would be something yea? If each moonbow shot had enough pen to go through a mauler kinda like wizard bolt staff then it would be a quite good use too.
Ok on waystalker the moonbow energy maybe a different story, shooting elites and specials on cata + more specials deed wont be possible with the energy it has XD
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It’s kinda weird that it doesn’t already considering Kurnous does interact with energy. Best thing I can say about moonbow on WS is letting you run piercing shot without ammo concerns but it’s silly that the passive doesn’t apply to moonbow and you end up with a ranged class that can’t shoot the bow any more than the melee careers (taking Kurnous really would defeat any allure in taking it on WS in the first place).
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@Frostysir A good change would be if the ammo regain talent would give energy back because on shade and handmaiden the moonfirebow is fine imo. But on waystalker it really lacks energy so if she would regain energy with the talent Kurnou`s reward or with the passive Amaranth it would really help out. I also wouldnt mind if both regen energy, as a range career waystalker should be able to shoot a lot!
Fair point, although I imagined the limited ammo javs to rely more on Conservative Shooter since neither Hagbane nor Swiftbow can make great use of it.
Could also make it regen ammo very slowly so over time, maybe that would suit it better?
Basically, javelins are supposed to hit harder, as well as cleave and stagger more than Longbow, because they are a heavier type of weapon with a lower ammo pool (speaking from “realism” perspective).
From a balance perspective, the ability to have unlimited ammo due to a fast recalling/summoning mechanism makes them hard to balance because they need obvious downsides to make up for that unlimited ammo - yet poor stats on a weapon that looks and feels heavier and harder hitting make it not only weird to play but also puts it at odds with Longbow since they now are very similar in how you use them (instead of the javs being the slower but more damaging weapon).
As for Moonfire, a rework rather than tweaking the energy number would be significantly more interesting. If the energy gets buffed, you only exacerbate the “Longbow vs Moonfire Bow” rivalry instead of giving each weapon its own niche.
The overhaul mod called Class Balance (Steam Workshop::Class Balance) does sth. vey similar and turns it into a railgun with unlimited cleave but only 1 shot per energy bar and a very long time to “charge” this single shot.
For official (Class Balance is aimed at modded difficulties, where cleaving through the significantly increased amount of enemies + increased enemy mass & hp becomes more valuable) going to this extreme would likely be overkill, but I could see MfB be turned into a bolt staff with great cleave - it would definitely be more interesting and have its own niche.
(A bit ironic to remove the cleave from javs to give it to MfB, and yet it would be way more balanced as MfB has a hard cap on the spammability due to the energy bar, whereas javs could be resummoned and thrown back to back).
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It does this already, but given the low capacity its like 1-2 shots, it’s really not much, as for somehow baking her passive regen in,i have no idea how to apply that-
So it´ll go back to being a ballista shot but you gotta headshot with it for consecutive shots? Isnt this kinda effectively reverting the cleave then…people would go nuts
But i do get the idea that it´s hard to do much from a balance perspective, however, i think that at face value, if we even now still got the case that majority of elves still seem to use javs or even moonbow over longbow then some minor stopgap buffs to make things a bit comfier isnt wrong. Gains one time and lessens dissatisfaction without really changing the balance.
If a rework wont be done anytime soon that is…which i believe is the case 
Old javs went through more than two maulers i think? But even with “only” two like the boltstaff the nice new colored flame effects become more obvious too. Visual impact&appeal to raise satisfaction and the feeling of doing things!
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That said, the idea of taking it to the extreme as a railgun sounds kinda fun too🤣
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Aimpunch is the accuracy decrease when the player takes damage. Longbow becomes notably less accurate, while Brace of Pistols can still manage to hit a ratling at mid-range after being hit by an enemy.
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20th hit? That sounds wrong.
Hack and Slash increases the crit average from 1 crit in every ~6.67 weapon swings (15%: base + melee + trinket crit chance) to 1 crit in every 4 swings (25%), ~2.23 fewer swings. A far cry from “20th hit”.
It’s very unlikely that one won’t be able to recognize the difference in crit frequency and DPS with the buffed Hack and Slash talent (unless there’s a bug).
Not exactly RNG. As of Aug. 2020 Patch 3.1, Vermintide 2 uses pseudo random distribution to critical strikes and procs.
The pseudo-random distribution (often shortened to PRD) in Dota 2 refers to a statistical mechanic of how certain probability-based items and abilities work. In this implementation the event’s chance increases every time it does not occur, but is lower in the first place as compensation. This results in the effects occurring more consistently.
Pseudo-random distribution / Manuel Blanc | Observable - a site which has a technical explanation and includes a calculator comparing PRD to true or uniform random distribution.