Rebalance Patch 5.2. - Feedback

Class Changes
Outcast Engineer

  • These are good changes as they correctly address two main issues with OE: Squishiness and ease of use.

Unfortunately, the same cannot be said for the rest of the changes to OE. While they do attempt to solve OE’s inherently problematic design (more on that in the suggestion part later), they fail to properly address any of them.

Instead, the result of these changes is a drastically overtuned class that is oppressively unfun to play alongside of, as well as very one-dimensional to play (ranged minigun spam plus aoe bomb/trollhammer spam - key word being SPAM).

Having access to 3 bombs at the start as well as having regenerating bombs every 80 secs leads to OE throwing bombs at every problem (and handing spare bombs to the team, so you drown in bombs).

Bombs are part of the game’s resource management, which gets completely removed by making a finite item infinite with the regening bombs.

Additionally, the removal of friendly fire also removes any risk of the risk-reward aspect, as well as any sort of thinking about the usage of bombs.
I understand the intention behind it (panic button for OE but not every class needs a panic button, e.g. Pyro, Bh, WS - aka most ranged classes! - do not have one and should not get one either).

Suggestion:
The changeblog states the following:

So why is his aoe damage output getting buffed, on top of giving him more damage from the overclock passive?
Here’s the problem of OE: His damage output was insane before any buffs, it just required the team to protect him. This is frankly not fun for 3/4 players in a match as the OE becomes the protagonist and the other 3 players get relegated to body guard duty that will not get to kill or engage many enemies anymore as OE kills 80% of the map.
The changes made this aspect even worse.
Instead, OE’s damage output should get a small reduction, while he gets a boost to survivability in return.

  • Most changes ought to be reverted. Keep the increased hp, the buffs to Piston Power, and the changes to the stacks.
  • Additionally, OE should get a base passive buff where he does not get stunned / interrupted while shooting the crank gun.
  • Talent 6-2: ‘Linked Compression Chambers’ should get an increase in movespeed while using the crankgun to make it the mobile option.
  • The Bombardier talent should give you a free bomb every 80 seconds and make you start with 3 bombs.
    However, Bombardier should no longer have the double bomb effect and also remove damage from bombs completely (so they just stagger, treat them like flashbangs that are there to keep OE and the team safe instead of damage tools - picking this talent should mean trading damage for safety).

Slayer

  • Should be reverted back to 5% as it outclasses both of the other options. There is no reason to buff this, instead the other 2 talents should be buffed to always work regardless of weapon choice (so your 1h weapon always gets the buff from the 1h weapon talent even if you have a 2h as your second weapon and vice versa.
    Increases build diversity.

Battle Wizard

  • You should look into Lingering Flames and how it interacts with Flamestorm staff. It’s very overpowered atm.

Necromancer

  • Reaping and Cursed Blood should get some nerfs as they overperform atm, e.g. the extra damage on Reaping makes crits delete waves of enemies and Cursed Blood allows Necro to play like it was Chaos Wastes with the lightning boon.

Bounty Hunter

  • The nerfs to Double-Shotted are fair IF and only if BH gets some buffs to his tmp hp gain and some more power to his melee for his resets (e.g. some small melee buff after using his passive ranged crit). Make him less one-dimensional but then he needs to get sth in return for the loss of his one-trick-pony identity.

Warrior Priest

  • So the main problem with WP was that his Fury would trigger “randomly”, making it impossible to control his passive ability and causing it to frequently trigger when it is not needed.

  • The current buffs simply make it so that he gets MORE passive procs with the idea being that ONE of these frequent procs will hopefully happen when you need it.
    That seems to be a poor solution as it does not address the problem directly. It just adds spam instead of precision in an “accuracy through volume” approach. A more elegant way would be much more helpful.

  • IMO WP now is grossly overtuned as he now gets a ton of passive procs nonstop, which can also trigger his ult and his lvl 30 talents - WP now gets to be old SotT and spam ults at every problem (ults that also proc his passive that functions like old "Radiant Inheritance), while ALSO getting non-stop Fury for 20% to 40% (!) more damage AND being able to just trample enemies during ult with no regard for positioning - it’s comical how simple it is to use, very little input or risk for maximum reward.

  • Revert all changes to WP. WP did not need massive buffs at all

  • Instead: WP needs more QoL. He should be able to directly control when he triggers his fury (button combo or sth along those lines).
    -Additionally, his weapons like 2h Hammer and Hammer&Tome could do with some small (!) touch-ups to make them a bit less clunky.

Grail Knight

  • Fair change to his ult as Gk is the best melee dps class in the game overall, while also having access to incredibly strong support abilities with his quests (his str pots also invalidate the resource management).
  • Virtue of the Impetuous Knight needs some Cooldown Reduction to remain competitive, maybe add some attack speed buff to it too.

Shade

  • While the changes are to Dual Daggers / Sword&Dagger, the changes are supposed to reduce the damage output of Shade. Compared to Grail Knight, Shade is much more specialized (mostly versus elites and bosses).
    If a build specializes versus bosses, it should be strong versus them. E.g. nobody is complaining that a shotgun or flamethrower absolutely deletes hordes because that is what they are specialized in.

  • If Shade is playing Cloak of Pain with Dual Daggers then that build is highly specialized and should not get nerfed as that build sacrifices much to achieve high boss damage (compared to Gk or Rv with the Masterwork Pistol or Ib with trollhammer that do not have to sacrifice as much and are still top boss killers).

  • If the nerf remains, I would like to see a buff to the lvl 30 -2 “Hungry Wind” to allow for more varied Shade builds that specialize versus hordes instead of bosses:
    Remove the movespeed buff and the moving through enemies but increase the powerbuff to 50% and increase the duration to 15 secs.
    (keep in mind that Grail Knight has his lvl 10 Virtue of the Ideal with 26% power for 10 secs after killing an enemy, Zealot has permanent 30% power from his passive, so 50% for 15 secs on a 70 sec cooldown ult seems reasonable.
    Alternatively, change it back to Cloak of Mist with the 100% crit chance for 8 secs on a 70 secs cooldown (compared to the old Cloak of Mists, this would not have 45% cooldown reduction and not have access to Vanish, so it would most likely be far from as oppressive as that old version.
    Witch Hunter has 6 secs of 100% crits on a 90 secs cooldown but he also has a far easier time accessing his instakills since headshots are easier to get than backstabs.)

  • The idea is to enable more weapons on Shade as only Dual Daggers and Sword&Dagger really benefit from the Infiltrate damage / the other weapons deal very poor Infiltrate damage, so all the other weapons are not worth playing atm because only Cloak of Pain is really competitive outside of meme killing a pat with Shimmer Strike.
    (Shimmer Strike is just way too niche to be of use as the 1 second invis after an elite kill is too short, having to use heavies massively restricts weapon choice, and killing and elite And a trash enemy in the same swing does not trigger the Shimmer Strike chain because you have to ONLY hit elites. Not to mention that you still get 1 charge of Infiltrate that only really benefits Dual Daggers/Sword&Dagger so you are still bound to use those two.)

Further Changes - Suggestion:

  • Nerf Masterwork Pistol right click damage by a decent amount. This weapon deletes monsters and armored elites in seconds by wildly spamming right click shots.
    It should be treated more like a precision pistol instead of a spam weapon.

  • Nerf Trollhammer Torpedo’s aoe damage and remove its interaction with Conservative Shooter and Scrounger. This weapon deletes bosses, packs of elites, and entire waves of horde enemies while being available on the tankiest class in the game.
    The tankiest class in the game should not have access to the best aoe burst damage weapon in the game, while also being able to work around its low ammo count by using Coservative Shooter and Scrounger.
    It should actually have limited ammo and mostly be a weapon used against single targets like bosses and chaos warriors, not a portable nuke.

  • Moonfire Bow should get a different role. Atm both Moonfire Bow and Javelins are discount Longbow versions (they deal less single target damage than longbow as a trade-off for having unlimited ammo).
    I would like to see Moonfire Bow be turned into a discount Hagbane that has unlimited ammo in return for aoe damage. Massively reduce its single target damage but give it its aoe damage back.
    Javelins could also lose their unlimited ammo and have an ammo count of 6-8 but have its pre nerf values back.
    Make these weapons more interesting by giving them their own niche instead of “longbow but weaker but with unlimited ammo”.

  • Huntsman Longbow should get some QoL on its zoom level and accuracy.

  • Pickaxe needs a different identity as Coghammer completely outclasses it atm. Maybe make it more akin to a Greatsword as Bardin is lacking a high cleave anti infantry weapon?

  • Fire Dagger, Crowbill, Swiftbow, Shade Repeater Crossbow, Conflag, and Drakefire Pistols could do with some changes.

  • Bomb dupe on the Parting Gift lvl 30 talent for Ranger Vet should get some nerfs, esp to firebombs due to them being too good versus everything - firebombs should be less potent versus armored enemies and fire (including Sienna’s fire weapons and Hagbane) should probably be completely ineffective versus super armor.

3 Likes

What a perfect post, I read the WP and BH part, but I’ll read the rest.
I agree 99.9%, the only thing I think they could add is damage reduction in the boss killer’s ultimate based on difficulty.

2 Likes

Is it really alright to be this based? I cant see anything even mildly crazy anywhere O_O

Have an upvote.

“Edit”

In hindsight, removing damage from OE bombs with that Bombardier talent entirely is probably not the right call. Removing the no FF/greatly reducing it is enough. Along with more cooldown on bomb gen.

2 Likes

I agree about Shade and Slayer, but I think I disagree with every single engineer suggestion you made.
I’m going to comment on only one of those, as I think I’ve otherwise given my feedback about him: if he gets movespeed and stagger resistence when shooting the crankgun you’ll be removing the cons of using it in favor of even more spam. He’s no space marine.

1 Like

I would agree that regenerating frag bombs with like a 120 sec timer and the revmoval of the “no friendly fire” perk might be just fine, especially if you move the talent from the lvl 10 row down to the lvl 25 row and have it replace the current “Bombardier” talent that way.

Reason being that the level 10 row on OE is for offense and lvl 25 is for defense, and as the dev blog stated, the bombs are supposed to help with OE’s defensive capabilities.
Additionally, it would force OE to make a decision regarding WHICH defense talent he wants in row 25 instead of getting free bombs on lvl 10 + another defense talent on lvl 25 like it is right now.

My main concern with bomb spam in general (applies to OE and RV) is that fire bombs are pretty overtuned atm:

  • they have neglible friendly fire, so absolutely no need to be careful with them
  • they also have aoe stagger just like regular frag bombs
  • they leave behind a patch of fire, thus damaging enemies well after having been used
  • the biggest offender: they kill everything - unarmored enemies, berserker armor, monster armor, regular armor, even superarmor (fire bombs should not deal any damage to armored units tbh, armor ought be the natural counter to all sorts of aeo DoT effects)

Essentially, OE getting regenerating fire bombs due to the current bombardier is what makes bomb spam truly obscene. Same fore RV with Parting Gift lvl 30 and fire bomb drops.

That’s why I think Bombardier should get removed and replaced by the “Bomb Regen” perk and “leading shots” should get readded to its former lvl 10 spot.

Then I suppose you could keep the bomb regen as a replacement for Bombardier. Increase the timer to sth like 120 secs, make it only regen frag bombs, and remove the “no friendly fire” part.

Ideally we’d get a rebalance of fire bombs too in order to give them a weakness as they are strictly superior to frag bombs in 90% of all situations).

1 Like

The idea behind is that the before the rebalance patch, “Linked Compression Chamber” was pretty weak and completely overshadowed by “Innovative Ammo Hoppers”.

If the rebalance changes were to largely get reverted (that is the main line of thought behind it, not simply adding buffs to the current abomination that is OE atm), then buffing “Linked Compression Chamber” to be a bit more mobile on top of having faster spin-up would A) make it more competitive and B) offer a more defensive choice for OE’s lvl 30:

  • you’d have “Gromril-Plated Shot” for anti armor,
  • “Innovative Ammo Hoppers” for maximizing damage, and
  • “Linked Compression Chamber” for a more defensive choice with increased mobility and not getting staggered out of his ult. Basically trading the increased damage potential of “Innovative Ammo Hoppers” for more safety.

Basically, OE’s damage output was “fine” before the rebalance (the dev blog says as much) but OE suffered in terms of defensive abilities.
Therefore, buffing his damage would be counterproductive and only exacerbate the issue.
However, simply buffing his defense at no cost would make him overpowered like he is right now.
Increased defensive power should come at a cost of offensive power.
Naturally, the trade-off should not be too gigantic (neither sacrificing too much nor getting too much in return).

After all the class identity should largely remain the same, and OE is simply a class that requires more team support than other classes and that is fine - he does excell if he is supported and does more damage than other classes in that scenario.

1 Like

Thanks, it’s more clear now.
But I still prefer other solutions, like the one right above (which points towards firebombs as overtuned).
Also I’d like to stress that engi’s base ulti has been nerfed quite a bit, not everything has been “an insane buff”, and I think small tuning will be enough, rather than a major rework.

1 Like

Does 7.5% crit chance really outclass +15% power? I’m not saying you’re wrong I just don’t understand how that could be the case when that’s like the only meaningful source of extra power for Slayer.

I only just saw this thanks to your quote, but what…da…feck?

The crit% one is by far the worst of the 3 because it’s an entirely RNG based buff vs the other two far more consistent and powerful buffs. The AS for also isn’t just a ln offensive boost, but a considerable defensive boost as well.

Being better than thousand cuts I can understand. Slayer is already swimming in attack speed (might even hit a cap or diminishing returns with SS, passive, + Ult?) it’s not hard to imagine how +7.5% crit chance could be a better average DPS increase on a bunch of weapons. Better than +15% power is the one I’m struggling with.

The current patch puts Hack&Slash at 10%, which nearly doubles Slayer’s crit chance (from 15% = about every 7 hits you’ll get a crit, to 25% = about every 4 hits will give you a crit).
Axes benefit from crits quite a bit, e.g. Coghammer will do more crit damage on a bodyshot than on a non-crit headshot iirc.

I should’ve worded it better, my bad.
Hack&Slash does outclass A Thousand Cuts in basically every way.
As for Skullsplitter, I meant that an unconditional buff like Hack&Slash that has 100% uptime on all builds is therefore easier to use and to incorporate in more builds - because it has no condition and a noticeable boost to dps, Swift Slaying uptime (esp. on the slower 2h weapons, thus making them a lot safer and easer to use), and safety.

Ultimately, tt’s not a great deal in the grand scheme of things but it does bug me that
A) this stat buff talent is better than all others of its kind in the game (they only ever give 5% percent)
and
B) that it makes Slayer have a higher “base” crit chance than crit based classes like Whc and Shade (it just feels off to me that the finesse based classes have less crit than the brute force tanky class, who gets more power anyway).

Changing it from 10% to 5% or 7,5% seems more appropriate to me, especially since I would like to see the other 2 lvl 10 talents lose their restricting condition (so you always get the respective buff on the corresponding weapon even if your 2nd weapon is of a different type - it would make builds on Slayer more varied).

3 Likes

I dunno I think it might be too boring to bother adjusting back downwards honestly. I’d kinda rather see it replaced than put back to a dull AND (fairly) unimpactful feeling +5% passive stat. I dunno what you’d replace it with though. That whole row, as you said too, needs a good bit of work done to it.

Thanks for explaining your thoughts fully, I definitely see where you’re coming from now.

3 Likes

Just want to say that I played yesterday and this doesn’t work for me, I don’t start with 3 bombs, but I do generate a bomb every 80 seconds that has the effect of both bombs.

I disagree with his, I don’t think the 10% crit chance outclasses the other talents, I understand normally it’s between chosing 1h weapons for 10% increased attack speed or 2h weapons for 15% increased power.

See if you chose the 10% attack speed + slayers ult which is 30% more attack speed + Swift slaying which is 20% more attack speed + the perk which adds 7.5% then that’s an extra 67.5 attack speed, and that’s not counting if your running attack speed on the weapon and the charm which would be 10% more in total.

If your just running 10% crit chance and chances are your running 1 extra crit chance to get 15% your still not hitting the attack speed levels I mentioned above, I’ve seen people previously run crit chance and attack speed on weapon and crit chance on trinket, all this did was allow them to now run crit chance alone on the trinket, now they can get that 15% and run block cost reduction on the weapon.

Now for the 15% power, yes it does attack a bit slower meaning less DPS but the power increase means less swings to kill something, and again you have the 30% of the ult, 7.5% passive and you’ll definitely activate Swift slaying several times during a run.

I only mentioned all this cause this is the way I looked at it, yes a crit is still a crit, and you crit quite often in this game, you’ll mostly just activate Swift slaying and keep hitting the beefy enemies.

you have a base critchance of 5% so it would be 20% critchance and with 2 items with critchance you hit 25% critchance. And its a huge different between 15% critchance like most other careers do have or 25% critchance. It pushes your critchance from every 7th attack to every 4th so it almost doubles your critchance. And that is why it outclasses attack speed talent, because you already have a ton of attack speed on slayer and it doesnt allmost double it, but the 10% critchance does.

1 Like

Thanks for sharing, I admit I didn’t know about the base 5% crit chance but I still disagree with the talent outclassing the other 2, you get a pure increase of 10% attack speed in the other one, with the extra attack speed and just how crits work means your gonna be having swift slaying pretty often and have a great dps output.

You literally crit pretty often in this game, I don’t believe this overshadows anything, and with slayer already having a good attack speed he will undoubtedly crit more often than other careers thanks to how often he is smacking away at the enemies.

Also I’m not trying to persuade anyone into changing their beliefs I’m just sharing mine.

Yeah you boosted your Crit rate, but it’s still largely just an RNG buff. Decent with swift slaying but ultimately still worse than attack speed even with diminishing returns. Faster attack speed unlike the rest also doubles as a better defensive stat allowing faster animations and blocks.

Key issue here are exactly the diminishing returns and the weapons affected, after you reach like 50-60% extra speed, swift slaying + slayer ult for instance, then you dont actually benefit from more on weapons like dual axes or hammers. They are already so inherently fast that unless you truly do a mad button mash there´s very, very little difference.

It does matter for weapons like 2h hammer or such but not the main weapons the talent actually affect. As for those? 10% extra crit instead? Having used that these last 2 nights i dare swear, it makes a huge difference.

javlin now has bad breakpoint on cata , I hope you can revert the armor damage , now we need 40% power of skaven to one shot headshot SV , and 40% power of skaven with enhanced power isn’t enough to one shot bodyshot ralting%warpfire.

BTW , Bounty Hunter need to rework or revert ult cooldown. (or maybe you can reduce ult damage.)

1 Like

Attack speed vs crit chance:

+10% attack speed directly deals 10% more damage, if there is no funny business with FS math.

+10% crit chance would translate to 10% extra damage if critting would deal double damage. But it doesn’t. Testing the cog hammer, dual hammers and 1h axe, critical hits deal 50-80% more damage in average. Some attacks reach 110% like dual hammer heavy attacks against monsters. Some deal even 230% more damage than regular attacks, but in these cases the regular attacks have a very low damage. For example cog hammer light attacks against storm vermins.
So +10% crit chance deals about 6.5% more damage.

If critical damage would double the regular damage, in that case the two slayer talents would be equal, so still not better than the attack speed talent.