Fatshark, you're going to kill the Grail Knight!

Warhammer: Vermintide 2 Gameplay Feedback
1

Before to start, I want to quote your words

The perceived weakness was a bit more tricky. We didn’t see this as an issue of damage output—frankly if the Engineer is allowed to concentrate fire he can put out some ridiculous numbers. But that’s not when the true mettle of a career is tested.

Vermintide 2 is quite easy when you are on cruise control running through levels and killing anything before it is a threat. The true test is when the unexpected happens. When a mauler teleports behind you mid overhead while the elf pulls the chaos patrol just as two assassins spawn. This is what creates those intense stories of heroic clutches that you want to tell your friends, but also where we felt the Engineer fell flat. With no panic button, clunky weaponry, and low health; the chances of his survival were quite slim.

This is what you wrote about OE and I swear I read nothing more rightful here… but then, as tradition, you do something really good just to ruin something else doing the opposite

Grail Knight is exactly what you described: if the game runs well, you’ll do tons of damage… but, when a messy situation happes, all the problems come to the light

This because Grail Knight does NOT have:

  • survivability (regen, heal, insta-stagger);
  • mobility (charge, dash, leap);
  • panic button moves (AoE stagger, invisibility, invulnerability);
  • damage reduction (one single overhead almost kill him);
  • ranged weapons;

So, why nerf him?

I won’t say any name, but there are careers with (more or less) the same damage output able to tank many more hits, leap away, heal up, insta-stagger nearby enemies etc. etc.

Plus, do we want to talk about Duties? Wich are really, really RNG? For example they don’t work well with certain game mods. Or again you can play a map without any boss spawning (and anyway the cooldown reduction is useful only with specifics builds). Or again they may be of little relevance

But now, let’s go to the main point: Blessed Blade, Grail Knight’s ultimate:

  • it’s not a panic button. It leaves you vulnerable and the animation is long: if you’re surrounded, you can’t use it to make space nor save your life;
  • its damage is low and imo you’ve balanced it around Legend difficulty:
    • if you choose the horizontal slash, you can onekill a Chaos Warrior only 1) building power vs him; 2) only if it’s one of the first enemies you hit (aka it can’t be between a horde) 3) and anyway you can kill 1 and only 1;
    • if you use the horizontal slash vs a mixed horde, for example with some elites like Stormvermins, on average you’ll only kill two elites (of course CW excluded);
  • the base version (vertical hit) is totally useless;
  • it’s not good vs bosses as you think, but since it’s the main point of your nerf, let’s talk better about it below:

First thing: the only way to make the Blessed Blade efficient vs Bosses is to choose the double hit talent (aka vertical hit + thrust). This means that:

  • your power vs mixed hordes decreases;
  • your ult is longer and so it leaves you vulnerable for more time;

Aka Grail Knight will be even more clunky

Moreover, try it. Use the Blessed Blade vs a boss… you’ll notice the damage of a single ult is pretty low

The only way to melt bosses is:

  1. you need the STR potions generator talent;
  2. you need to farm 4 potions and to give them to your mates;
  3. of course your mates have to keep them for the right moment;
  4. when a boss spawns, your mates must be alive and they must give to you the potion;

As you can see Grail Knight, to melts bosses, needs a lot of steps, factors and cooperation! And, during all this, you’re vulnerable

Fatshark, you not only will increase the cooldown, so the ult will be less useful vs everything and not only vs bosses… but will you nerf the talents wich give power too?! Did I read well?!

That’s so weird that I can’t understand. Power is what allows GK to do his job… how do you justify this nerf?
I mean, I understand your speech about Blessed Blade and Bosses… I still think it’s very wrong but I understand it. While Power Talents nerf definitely not, could you explain this point to us?

Fatshark, you’re going to kill the Grail Knight!

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He is no way clunky but your points on blessed blade are the truth for cata.

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I probably used the wrong words… I mean, you’re right, he’s not clunky like for example the OE

But can happen you get surrounded and you don’t have any tool to survive, while others careers hav a leap, a dash, a heal, a insta-stagger etc. etc.

Thanks for the feedback!

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I guess the devs looked at lower difficulty when it comes to monster damage. There GK is indeed really strong with his blessed blade. But on cata, you need a lot of ultimates to solo him with only using blessed blade. Also i dont know why they want to reduce the power talents. It sounds like they want to nerf “Virtue of the Ideal” and “Virtue of of Heroism” as well. Especially the first one is very handy if you have a shield weapon as a second weapon so you reach the stagger breakpoint vs monks more easily.

I only hope you can still oneshot chaos warrior with blessed blade. And take out 2 of them with the double hitting ult. Also i hope the Virtue of Ideal nerf wont mess with my stagger breakpoints vs monks using a shield

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Indeed mate, I fully agree!

I mean, Blessed Blade and power are what let GK to do his job, killing dangerous enemies… without what would remain?

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On one hand I feel like GK has been annoyingly prevalent for frontline with his ultimate, on the other I can see how the proposed changes would diminish his overall usability.

I personally never felt like he trivializes bosses as much (not even on Legend), but he did trivialize pretty much any horde or elite mob with a horizontal slash. I think what could work for his ultimate would be increasing the damage and cooldown at once. Kind of an indirect nerf to his horde murdering potential while letting him keep the power against monsters and all the breakpoints.

I feel like the nerf to charged attack power is aimed at the same problem, that being trivialization of many elites and such. I see the problem, but I’m not entirely sure what should be done about it as to not break the career too much.

Mixed feelings overall, I see both the problems you address and those Fatshark is trying to remove and I’m not sure how to resolve it aside from what I’ve mentioned.

One thing I have to note is that if they are balancing it for Legend then they are likely doing the intended thing, as it is the baseline difficulty. While I’d put Legend balance over Cataclysm (this isn’t even a part of the base game), I think it’s entirely possible to balance GK for both - something you can’t do with every career.

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Then every frontliner has to be nerfed, because skilled zealots and slayers doing the same, only even faster than gk.

I mean i wouldnt mind if the blessed blade is tweaked or not (as long as it isnt a straight up nerf) but the horde clearing argument is a weak argument considering the movement speed junkies named zealots and slayers can do the same things even faster. They are annoying me as well because they run ahead and everything behind them is dead. While i am feeling like playing a walking simulator and being bored XD.

But back to my point. I dont see why there should be a nerf in the first place, because you can carry and trivalize content with almost every career if you are skilled enough. Nerfs should only be made if the effort you put in doesnt match the outcome.

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i really think fatshark want boss to stay more alive, but if that’s so… don’t nerf boss killer, start with :

-make the modifier of choas wastes not delete all distance dmg but a reduction like -60%

-reduce dmg taken by monster by 60% overall

what makes boss dies in 5 sec is :
ultimate and passive like witch hunter (+25% dmg against tagable enemis) (crit chance increased for the whole team).
ultimate like iron breaker
(+20% dmg for the whole team)
Poison of sister of the thorns (+20% dmg)
and now your adding power vs monsters for war priest as aura ?!..

so, if i get fatshark, boss without the resistance do distance gonna died in 2 ult of pyro, 1 ult of ranger dwarf with pistol, 1 ult of ranger kruber with arrows but you don’t want saltzpire ult, grail knight ult or shade to do the same ?

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Even Slayer/Zealot takes more effort than just pressing [F] for your horizontal slash. I’d generally say that Zealot isn’t in good place right now, but for unrelated reasons. I’d even go as far as to say Zealot still takes more weird mangement to do well than GK right now… but in the worst way possible.

Just take the godforsaken Cog Hammer away from Slayer cause this thing is obnoxious.
No, actually, disregard my previous statement. Delete the Cog Hammer entirely. It’s a pre-nerf Executioner’s Sword except with added armor pen on light attacks for good measure, and there was a reason Executioner’s Sword got nerfed.

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i said it in another post but it’s easy to fixed zealot make natural bond give thp instead of life and everyheal become thp even if someone else heals you.

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Eh, I’d be in favour of making Zealot’s HP-to-THP conversion be intrinsic to him instead of tied to Natural Bond. But the overall idea is sound. Anyway, sorry for my off-topic, don’t have anything more to say about GK though.

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We all know zealot needs a rework,

With the horizontal slash you kill most of the time 2 elites, with luck 4 and then you will have cooldown for a while.

And due to the movement and attack, the zealot and slayer will most often clear enemies way in front of the party and when the party has closed up, the enemies will be already dead.

But i dont want to discuss in which situation is what career better. My point was that slayer and zealot are doing the same stuff, why would you only nerf gk. He is well balanced and he is strong, but he is also meant to be a melee only frontliner and i dont see any sign of being overpowered.

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In my opinion we can’t say “it trivializes” if most times it can kill only two elites and of course Chaos Warriors excluded… while there are others careers able to do the same just spamming mouse left button… plus, at the same time, being also more tankier

Moreover I would not call “without effort” the Blessed Blade. It’s slow and leaves you vulnerable, rather it’s a very risky move to use in a chaotic situation

The only weapon wich “abuses” of power on heavy attacks is the Exe Sword… but it’s already a clunky weapon with its cons

It can’t be used while you’re surrounded

I mean, in messy situation, I can’t use its slow heavy attacks… while, for example, I can spam Axe&Falchion or dual Axes

At least that’s my opinion… thanks for the feedback, mate!

Indeed. If they are so worried about bosses, they could just buff them… instead of nerfing whatever can be even barely useful vs them too

(anyway, imo, bosses are fine like now… they can be melt or can be a serious danger depending on the situation and the team composition)

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Yes I agree his nerfs are really uncalled for. He’s no Boss Killer, even if FS might think of it as one, building it for it leaves you in a much worse overall state. If they want to tweak it, like they are doing the other careers, maybe, sure, but a straight nerf is really uncalled for.

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Especially if you give a dual axe slayer a blue potion the monsters are melting, dont understand the logic behind the gk nerf. The dual axes deal also more damage vs monster in the hands of an slayer than the dual daggers, which were also nerfed.

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I agree with soul23 , the point of playing GK is to kill things in melee.

He has no direct attackspeed bonuses so he needs to hit hard.

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Exactly, that are two nice points

GK, to become a bosses killer, not only needs steps/cooperation like I wrote… but you need to build the character around it, as result you must do more compromises

Anyway yep, if Fatshark really thinks that’s a serious problem, then should just rework the career… there many useless talents and “meh” aspects like the Duties… instead of a flat nerf

Thanks, this is something I had forgotten yo talk about

The lackness of attack speed is another factor that makes the clunkyness even worse. For example Mercenary or Slayer get both power AND attack speed

Attack speed is fundamental to increase the damage, make space, increase the survivability, help with slow weapons, etc etc

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As it is I fear that the nerf to the CD time of blessed blade won’t really change things against bosses, but it’ll make fighting those mixed cata hordes much harder (as I often rely on the horizontal swing for that)

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That’s for sure, mainly if we consider the nerf to power from 30% to 24%

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That’s not huge though, and the power of charged attacks has been increased to 30% to balance it.