Grail Knight - POSITIVE Feedback (even if...)

Balanced (not too strong nor too weak) and Unique (even if he’s a frontline soldier, he remains very fragile… but, in order to compensate this, he has a good killing power vs elites and bosses).

Despite this, some aspects could work better.

  • About Blessed Blade:

    1. during the “use”, you are really vulnerable… could happen that you would like to use it, it would be really useful, but you can’t otherwise you would die… Ults should be “those seconds of power” for an hero… not something with pro and cons. Indeed I think GK’s ult is almost the only example of “an ult with cons”.
      It should have a faster animation or some damage reduction/invulnerability;
  • About duties:

    1. (duty) Killing a boss: it’s RNG: we can have no-boss runs… or it can spawn only at the end (same problem like Huntsman’s damage reduction talent);

    2. (reward) Cooldown reduction: IMHO it’s (really) useful only with specific careers. Sometimes it’s a “wasted” duty. Too situational.

  • About talents:

    1. Virtue of Temper (crits instantly kill…): with the correct perks, crits are already capable to kill almost everything (and this is good);

    2. Virtue of Heroism: (+25% power on charged attacks): overshadowed by Virtue of the Ideal: it gives +30% power on every attack and it’s almost always active. I would like to see something more specific for an elites killer build… like +x% damage to the first enemy hit;

    3. Virtue of Discipline (blocks increase power): very useless;

    4. Virtue of Stoicism (damage in tHP after 5 seconds): in theory it could be good, but it’s also too situational. I would like something more “solid” to grant a little bit of survivability, like +X% tHP regen or +X% damage reduction;

    5. Virtue if the Impetuous (speed after ult): someone likes it… it seems to me the worst choice on this raw.


tbh I’d like it if we had attack speed instead of movement speed on Impetuous; that’d make it ultra competitive with the other options if not the meta pick


The improved Healing blessing needs a serious looking at. 1 HP every 2.5 second, should be 1.3 if you’re using Boon, adds with NB and Amaranthe so that’s technically 4 HP every 5 seconds (until half health, then it’s 3 HP). The 2.5 second time might also be the culprit why THP ceases to decay (take the sword from Blightreaper, THP health will regenerate instead of decaying).

Yeah, that’s gotta go.

Virtue of Stoicism is clunky and can’t compete with Joust.

Beyond that I’m having fun with him. Can see why the initial thought was he’s too powerful, he destroys legend with a vengeance, but feels fine on Cata, maybe even a bit too strong against bosses. Man walks through elites and is vulnerable to trash mobs.


I agree with most of the other stuff you said, but not this first section.

The cooldown of the Ult is 40 Seconds (reduced by damaging), it also has CC for Bosses. If you run Power and the Cleave Talent, you can kill more than one Elite at once, and still kill Chaos Warriors with a headshot on Cata.

If it had invincibility frames, you could pop a Conc and stand still killing Bosses. Not that it isn’t already almost that silly anyway.

Being vulnerable while using the Ultimate is the only thing that offsets the short CD.

This is very good for when you get left alone or are the lone survivor. GK doesn’t have the AS of Merc/FK, so kiting is the best way to survive high density.

No, it really should not. Being vulnerable while using your active skill is not even a con. It just means that you have to think for a second. Bounty Hunter’s Locked and Loaded is pretty much identical in this regard.

I mean these are ACTIVE skills which you should use actively and not “reactive” as your get out of jail card. As for many things in the game, you should be punished if you use your active skill in the wrong situation/moment.

Not really. While I do think that it would work most perfect with a Spear (which GK cant use, damn peasant weapon) it also works quite well with shields or the Longsword. Blocking is something you can easily integrate into every match and it is a talent which works best if the favour of the match turns against you. On Longsword especially you can just add BCR on it, chose Virtue of Discipline and Virtue of Heroism, couple it with Knights Challenge and Smiter. Be excessive and add Off-Balance on it and you have a charged attack which does 110 % more damage without critting.

would like if that talent or one of his talents offered attack speed tho

Kruber weapons are kinda sluggish without swift slaying up :sweat_smile:


Stares in FK, BH, RV and Pyromancer.


I can’t believe anyone is suggesting buffing the class even more…
Shame on you.
I think the grail knight should be tuned down a bit - they really must take away exec from him. Exec makes all elites/bosses obsolete.

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FK: Can block for duration of Ult. Most issues come from problematic stagger interactions, not the core design of the Ult.

BH & Pyro: I mean these are both ranged Ults that don’t require you to be in things faces to be effective. How are they not much safer?

RV: Yeah it’s got a bit of startup, but it also comes with an aoe stagger & invisibility. Seems way safer to use in almost any situation compared to GK.

Not really saying they need to remove the end lag or anything, but I find those comparisons unconvincing.


Now, it’s obvious, this thread can receive good or bad feedback… but this one seems a little exaggerated to me:

Killing elites and bosses is GK’s role… otherwise he would be useless. I mean, he’s a frontline soldier without any survivability/resistance… rather he can not even use the ult under pressure (at least not always). And he misses a ranged weapon.
There are other careers that can kill elites and bosses even better… and that they have 20-30% damage reduction (but sure, these careers miss other advantages that GK has… for this I find the overall picture balanced).


It’s an ult made for speedrunning. I’m fine with it. It covers a speedrunner niche, and it’s great to think about thoses people.


What exactly is GK doing no other career can do right now, while having a range weapon, at least one option to get out of crap situations and Damage Resistance?

One hitting Elites? Nothing new. Killing a wave of SVs, or Zerkers with the press of F? Maybe we should get a Waystalker into this conversation, or a BH, or a Shade. One hitting Cws with a low to no CD? BH and Shade did that for ages. They even dont need to risk their neck at all doing so, unlike Mr. “I need to charge my attack for a second and cant block for a second after I am done with it” Grail Knight. And I actually dont even want to get WHC into this, because he makes GKs Talents look like a Fanfiction short story.

When it comes to melee killing power Shade does not lack behind GK at all, thanks to her busted weapons, her passives and Assassin. BH just doesnt care with a penetrating everything but CWs busting blessed Crossbow on low to no CD.

Both of them have also have access to DR. One of them even Ammo generation.

All the GK has is damage and not even an extraordinary amount. There is no other career with such handicaps and he has absolutely nothing to show for in return.


GK is a good concept and it is executed well. The passive skill buffs might need some looking into, but I think we all know they are as good as they are so people buy the class :wink:
All jokes aside, he does have some weaknesses that do make him a little too… let’s say quirky. No ranged weapon and no “get out of jail free” card mobility is a huge disadvantage that can leave you helpless in many situations. Sure, not ending up in such bad places it part of the VT2 skillset, but it makes the carreer a little more frustrating than it needs to be. Not having these options as a main staple is fine, as the rest of the carreer does offer a unique playstyle. But I think he would be in a better place if he could maneuvre around the battlefield better. Being a main damage dealer and not being able to reach priority targets is… yeah…
Thing is: He can be geared towards CC, but his CC is slightly above average then. He can deal extraordinary single target damage with ease, but can sometimes have trouble putting his horsepowers on the street, if you will. Yes, it is a team game, he should rely on other teammates to help him deliver his full potential, but there’s a difference between “helping” and “relying”.

I don’t think he needs overall DR. IMHO, he should get just a little something against AoE damage and a little something for mobility.

1.) Give him passive resistance against AoE damage, maybe 45%. Make his lackluster temp-hp-after-hit-talent increase this resistance by 20%. It would make the “DR against AoE” necklace trait give him access to 75% (yes, I know DR-stacking does not work like that, but how about we’d just let him stack regularly?) AoE resistance. You still cannot afford to stand in gas clouds this way or get showered in bile too often, but you could turn him into a veritable boss killer that doesn’t care much Stormfiends and Trololols, would make him stand out in this regard. He would have something the others do not, even out-DR-ing the high-DR classes while not becoming tankier in any other situation. If his bretonian shield can block warpfire, then his armour can, too.
2.) Not movement penalty from bile, warpfire, plague-ghosts and such. Also maybe: no visusal impairment from bile, no afterburning on sf-warpfire maybe.
3.) Ability to move through staggerd/knocked down mobs. Ability to dodge through standing mobs.
Concept already exists as talents for other carreers. Still wouldn’t give him the same “that’s it, I’m outta here”-safety of movement or stealth abilities, but slight battle-field mobility-boost.

I agree. You can cancel it by parrying though, and it doesn’t get used, which is kind of nice. It is indeed a problem since it’s most useful in clutch situations, and that’s specifically when you can’t use it.
I also run Virtue of Confidence (the horizontal swipe) instead of Virtue of Audacity (double ult) simply because you’re vulnerable for far too long.

I like this.

This seems out of character.

I don’t think this would solve any issue of having to rely on allies. I know this is a team game and all, but I’ve never seen specials live so long as when I’m tagging them as a GK.


To be fair, I don’t think there’s any way this could be “in character” for anybody, as this is such a meta-concept to begin with. But I get what you are saying, it still would seem… well, “off” on a Grailknight. It really is a shame that it would make him too similar to FK to give him a charge. How awesome would it be if he were to summon a horse to dash through enemies :wink:

Yes, maybe, but I think it is kinda given that he will have to rely on teammates due to lack of ranged weaponry. I still think it would give him survivability where he needs it the most and some off-tanking ability, without getting anywhere near Merc or FK in this regard. Would be a completely different affair.

both actually

Once again, his Ultimate is on a 40 second CD, reduced by damage. It has in-built CC and with the cleave Talent and double hit Talent, it’s way easier to land than Shade to kill 2 or even 3 enemies on every Ult.

With a Conc Potion he’s better against Bosses, because of the CC, he’s better at Bosses because of the 40 second CD vs a 1 minute CD.

It’s RNG, but he also has chance to reduce that CD by 10% or even 15%, so 36 seconds and w/e 15% is, before attacks lower it too.

His Weapons are mostly built to Stagger, so giving them the killing power of his Crit execute Talent just makes him crazy good.

The fact you can take a Stagger Weapon and then Exe Sword, and one-shot almost every Elite is insane.

Also his Stagger Weapons make his playstyle even safer than WHC and Shade for landing his 1-shot mechanic and safer in general with his health pool and increased Stamina Regen/THP on taking damage:

GK: 180 HP
Shade: 120 HP
WHC: 150 HP

I really don’t understand why you think he’s weak. Please post some gameplay.

How does double hit have CC? It literally doesn’t CC anything other than monsters. Shade can kill 2 - 3 enemies on every ult as well. Also from stealth. Shade can also phase through enemies during stealth.

How is the CC better than being perma invis? If there is also a horde up, you can easily stagger the monster out of attack range.

That would be true if it were CDR and not regen, but its regen so it doesn’t really work that way.

You mean shields? None of his weapons are meant to stagger unless you take a shield or 2HH.

This is the one thing he actually does really well. He does very good single target elite damage.

Also, his monster damage is pretty poor unless you take Audacity. If you take audacity, you lose your CC. So saying you can do both isn’t really true. You have to choose one or the other.

Here is why he is weak: he is really good at killing elites at the cost of every other aspect of the game. He isn’t tanky, his horde dps is poor, he is a liability killing specials, and he is only good at killing monsters if you take a particular talent or have a conc pot.

Compared to other classes he just doesn’t bring enough to the table. Can you run through cata on him? sure. Can you top damage in cata on him? Sure, although at more effort than with most “dps” careers.

Also, shade is a ridiculously strong class. It’s not just shade that outclasses him in every way. WHC does too. And the big thing, these classes aren’t giving up a ranged weapon to do it. That is huge.

This is misleading at best. No DR, no panic button for an ult. Poor mobility. Using base HP as a definitive stat for durability is ill advised.


Not my argument, but being able to control where a boss goes with conc + audacity and even chuck them off cliffs like a toddler is pretty potent. I get FK can already do that with his charge, but GK, imo, can do it better.