Make Grail Knight Hero Power (ULT) trigger weapon trait effects again

Make Grail Knight Hero Power (ULT) trigger weapon trait effects again. Devs acknowledged that is is intended after the last patch to NOT trigger weapon trait effect on ults.

I feel this change should be reverted, other careers still trigger weapon effects on ults and I don’t see why GK shouldn’t either.

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cuz he op?

I mean by that logic may as well the same treatment to WS and BW for starters.

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sure why not

Correct me if I’m wrong, but doesn’t GK’s ult always counts as a critical strike?
If so this might be what makes it unique in this case.

Even still, the @gpkgpk’s got a point. If we’re correcting this small thing, GK’s ult is hardly the most powerful. Waystalker is arguably broken with all the cooldown stacking and how ‘Bloodshot’ causes Trueshoot Volley to double. If you use the Javelins, you can throw in ‘Loaded Bow’ for an additional arrow.

I understand GK is a powerful melee class like but not OP. We all know using GK comes at the cost of using ranged weapons and as for other melee-only classes, Slayer has his throwing axes and unparalleled DPS output while Warrior Priest has more support talents. GK does not stand out like a sore thumb, but he’s getting looked at while Waystalker puts me to sleep after a few rounds of playing with Bloodshot/Ult-Cooldown build and Javelins.

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Health regen is inherently unhealthy game mechanic (pun intended) even worse its a passive 0 input full payout ability. sure not guaranteed but still.
his ult is among the least lenghy cooldowns (excluding dashes) and among the least skill expressive.
yes not having ranged is a hefty toll but not unreasonably so in a decent team

teamplay focused ability? only passives
helping the team with ranged enemies? nope
threat of elites? press F

no other career has so few responsibilities in the team while simultaneously offering enough payout to be considered good.
he might not be broken in terms of raw numbers but certainly, if you consider what is demanded of the player playing him.

They’ve been on this train for a while though? They removed the interaction where trueflight arrows would refund arrows with conservative shooter for instance. Which to my knowledge, mostly only affected one specific longbow build.

Does BW have any combo like this? I do not play her enough to remember, i like unchained too much :sweat_smile:

Just about everything you said is so completely contrary to what I’ve experienced that I can’t agree with any of it in the slightest.

Health regen is a legitimate game mechanic and I don’t see any reason otherwise, but that’s practically irrelevant to GK’s. Nat bond exists, as does elf regen.

Also, the healing quest is contingent upon the completion of an objective and it isn’t even always guaranteed in Chaos Wastes and it’s not giving GK any advantage that any other class isn’t getting. It can make the entire team OP if you all have stacked a ton of healing bonuses, but arguably, that’s just good strategizing at work. When the entire team ends up synergizing their passive bonuses well, I’ve rarely seen anything like this break the game, unless it’s in Chaos Wastes.

You can easily get Trueshot Volley from 80 seconds to around 30 seconds with cool-down passive benefits paired with weapon traits and it’s far more effective with about 0 skill. Pyromancer’s ult is a honing projectile that requires little skill and it’s only 20 seconds longer; also staggers bosses and can be reused with on crits as common as a coinflip or offers temp health instead. Battle Wizard’s ult is a 2 shot 40 second cooldown (like GK) that can wipe out a patrol.

I can’t think of any ults that are very “skill espressive”. With GK’s ult, all the same, melee principles apply. You have to dodge and stagger enemies before you strike, and it’s only about 2-4 kills with a horizontal strike on black rats, but on chaos warriors, it’s not even a guaranteed kill. It’s usually better to take the two strikes for monsters and bosses, but GK’s not the best boss killer. I’d take BH, Shade, Battle Wiz, Engineer, or Pyro over GK for boss killing.

This is one of the most myopic takes I’ve heard.

Passives are legit aids to the team. Remove all passive benefits from a game, and you’re essentially playing a platformer. All skill, am I right?

Still, compared to Slayer, GK offers decent stagger potential, depending on your weapon choice, properties, traits, and talents. GK also has a lot more potential to be an asset to the team during gameplay than many classes that are unable to keep enemies staggered and do tanking. GK’s ult is not usually a huge damage dealer to bosses, it’s mainly useful for the immense stagger, and it’ll usually take aggro.

In terms of not being a ranged kill stealer, this makes GK a veritable Chad compared to a lot of DPS-focused classes. He’s got decent DPS, but it’s not all poured into being able to shoot stuff before you attack it; instead, he can stagger and tank. If GK is taking out the vast majority of what you’re fighting, it’s probably because you’re pure tank class or you’re just awful with DPS classes while whoever is using GK is playing decent.

Shields anyone? He can take aggro from flame rats and gunners and defend against them, aiding other ranged team members in getting the kill. Not being able to snipe has never stopped me from helping the team with specials or any other enemy.

Hardly, and much less so than any ult which increases damage output significantly and/or does direct damage. Again, he can’t typically one-shot chaos warriors without the second stab, and the horizontal swipe is about 2-4 black rats closely packed. You can get hit, interrupted, and miss for any number of reasons that all require using the same skills you’d use in any melee encounter. I would give you examples, but over half the careers in this game can wipe out more enemies than GK can with his ult, and significantly more at that.

This is utter nonsense. Highly specialized builds may only really deal with a few types of enemies well, but they all have to be capable of dealing with any kind of enemy.

GK simply can’t special snipe, but he has alternative ways of dealing with specials that shoot which comes from his other benefits like movement speed and shield tanking.

GK can be specialized to deal stagger, tank, crowd clear or deal damage, like any other more melee-focused class, but with an emphasis on being a heavy hitter since he has no ranged. What’s being demanded of GK is considerable, while being capable of compensating for the loss of range to deal with just about anything if you put in the effort.

What’s being “demanded” of any class depends on the team structure, the enemies, and every other aspect of the game beyond the player’s control. What I think you mean is that “what is expected” of GK is not much, but that probably stems from a lack of understanding regarding how much a melee class is capable of coming from people who depend too heavily on ranged attacks.

I firmly believe that GK is one of the best balanced classes in the game, and his role is well defined. At this point, I’d be averse to discussing anything further without starting a new thread, and if we’re going to have a basis for consensus, as usual, it’s not going to be our experiences because they differ so greatly.

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Those weapon traits are a joke these days, they nerfed them all to oblivion, running em is pretty much not doing anything for you as far as i know. Seriously, 5% every 4 seconds on a crit compared to any other trait that isnt like, inspirational headshots? Heck no-

So as for waystalker, the most you can reasonably lower the cooldown with is down to 47 seconds or so, and at the price of sacrificing your passive health regen and/or team regen for it. That price for an ability that by default misfires a ton and kills like 2 stormvermin when it does work well? Color me unimpressed.

Bloodshot bugs are meanwhile just that, bugs that should not be there.

I mean, GK typically doesnt help his team with any specials at all, oftentimes i see em finish a game with about 3-6 special kills in total. I´d consider it great if they can manage to not get themselves killed by specials that they cant reach.

Gunners and firerats? Those are among the easiest shooting targets present in the game so i cant say i find it amazing that one can stand there and let them do their thing. Packmasters, assassins, leeches and even stormers are far more deadly.

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Those cool down traits are not useful on most classes, but on WS (and OE) they are useful because you can build that class around constant use of the ult. Also, although I prefer swift-slaying on Pyro, you can get decent temp health with 5% ult cooldown every 4 seconds. When you’re almost guaranteed to get a crit every 4 seconds during a horde and kills + taking damage give you cooldown, you can effectively throw a fireball every 30-40 seconds gaining a good bit of temp health.

A decent melee player in any class can handle
the other specials you mentioned, even if they can’t snipe them outright, and they’re going to a problem for anybody embedded in a horde. A melee only team is a risk, but a couple melee only classes in a team is an asset. That said, I still often end up with 9-12 special kills as GK and sometimes more than the team. Also, just because someone can shoot it before I kill it doesn’t mean they were helping more.

About gunners and firearms, they’re easier to shoot when they’re not shooting at you, ranged or not. Shielded GK helps take the aggro with those quite a bit so that they aren’t shooting you.

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For waystalker its a problem of traits and what you are using.

Ranged weapon? Too many other damn traits are far more useful and possibly essential too, melee? If you are in melee enough to proc that trait constantly then you are missing out on the main half of her kit anyhow.

Engineer doesnt feel like he gets enough crits to make it worth to me, sitting in melee with him to recharge the gun means you might as well run the talent that makes the cranking last until you shoot next. That trait gives way too little on him.

Heck no, i´ll take a merc or a FK over GK any day of the week simply due to their guns and the extra special suppression that provides. Otherwise if you get something like a stomer casting at the team and your one ranged specialist is bogged down then sh*t hits the fan way too fast.

A packmaster riding a horde with elites that doesnt get thinned out is also a death sentence for many if not most.

Firerats dont apply any accuracy debuffs when shooting at you, only gunners do and its pretty rare for them to get close enough to say a bounty hunter or a waystalker for that to be a big thing. And as for shields, GK is the only one that resists fire but at the same time, he´s probably the only one with a shield who is actually that threatened by it. Except WPoS now as well i suppose.

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I use the ranged and melee with cooldown on crit for Waystalker. It gets me down to roughly 28 seconds before I can Bloodshot-Loaded Bow-ult. I just focus on getting my ult to recharge as quickly as possible while tossing a few javelins with cooldown on crit or using dual swords to clear out hordes with cooldown on crit. Again, that’s + the 20% cooldown Asrai Focus and + the Spirit Arrows for the Amaranthe passive, and + trinket 10%. At that point, any extra ult cooldown just becomes even more valuable.

And heck no, I’ll take a GK and a WP for the passive bonus stacking and the ability to handle specials embedded in a horde of elites via melee stagger power. FK and Merc are nothing to sneeze at but at that point, we’re just talking about our preferences and I don’t think that one choice is necessarily inferior to the other. Besides Slayer, the other two melee-only classes are a huge asset to the team.

Bounty Hunter and Waystalker have the potential to take down a lone fire rat much quicker than melee classes, but in a horde of enemies, if they can’t free up space to shoot them (which happens fairly often in my experience) then they will be at a disadvantage when they can’t stagger them or reach them. They have no shield to advance on them and stagger the horde with the embedded specials. WP can use his ult on firerats, and GK can use his shield. When I play Waystalker or BH, and I’m crowded, I usually have to use the ult anyway if I’m stuck with a firerat nearby. Whether you’re melee or not, if nobody can shoot the gunner, you’re going to have to break contact enough to shoot it, or let it come to you by waiting around a corner or below a ledge. I don’t see any special as being much more difficult for melee than ranged except when there are so many that are just out of reach long enough to get embedded in crowds, which is why a full melee team is a risk, but one or two is a great help to passive bonuses, as well as the tanking, control crowds, monster aggro, and deal with a lot of elites; all the things that are weaknesses for certain ranged careers.

This is all besides the point though since the only reason I brought up Waystalker or melee classes was in reference to how much more poorly balanced some classes are compared to others and just to let ya’ll know, I don’t think GK is OP at all. We’re going back and forth on nothing directly related to the topic. The point relevant to the topic that matters to me is that things are getting tweaked that seem like they should be much less of a priority than other things that are not getting tweaked. This thread is an example of ad nauseum subjective discussion. It’s just a waste of time unless those involved care enough to present empirical evidence or find some common ground. @Adelion may be one of the only users to present supportive facts and have enough special interest to do so. Discussing subjective points to support more subjective points is just going to go off in tangents to the point of extreme tedium.

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I agree. Since ranged ults trigger weapon traits, melee ults should too. I’m not sure why you need to add restrictions on a career that is already restricted from using ranged weapons.

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Honestly this seems more like a bug rather than an intended “fix” as was reported.

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Do they? I know WS’s was “fixed” to not proc weapon traits. I haven’t noticed BH’s proccing Hunter or Scrounger but maybe I just haven’t been paying enough attention. Which ults do still proc traits?

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Yea, would like to kow the answer to this as well. Because as I mentioned in the other tread, the career skills shouldn’t do that. BH probably never has done this. Waystalker career skill only did it because of the time difference between activation and impact. Pyromancer is probably the same.

You could argue that Shade’s career skill triggers weapon traits. But it is done with her actual weapon, same for Huntsman or Zealot or Slayer. I think this is where the confusion might come from.

But from the classes which actually summon a damage thingy out of thin air (BH, WS, PM, OE, GK) it never was happening outside of strange interactions or bugs. It seems to me consistent within the game’s “logic” of “summoned” weapons versus normal ones. You can of course criticize the logic and ask for more consistencies between careers.

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My opinions on the rest aside, you raise an absolutely fair point on the virtue of sticking to the original subject and not derailing the thread.

I will send a private message shortly!

P.S. My buddy said BH Ult was triggering weapon trait, add that to list.
Edit: this was last night in CW, 2nd hand info as I said, I’ll try to confirm.
Edit 2: On dummies at least, BH Ult doesn’t seem to proc campaign weapon traits.

I don’t think it does though? Can anyone actually test themselves to confirm please?

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Well, basically says “was”. So in the past it did but not anymore.

But yea, I’m on the same page as you. I am fairly sure that BH career skill never triggered weapon traits. There are thousands of hours of video footage for Vermintide 2. If this was a thing at one point someone surely should be able to provide some clips.