Guys… we seriously underestimated RV’s smoke bomb + new masterwork pistol,
that combo tears patrol/boss and offers invisibility while doing so, he is the best class out of new DLC not the engineer.
I think his kit is great. None of his talents seem bad, I can find a use for every single one personally. His talents mainly work on their own, and are decided by what weapon combination you take, but even then there are multiple talents that can work for each weapon.
I enjoy the guaranteed ranged crits, a fun and useful talent that expands on a type of talent that I personally enjoy a lot. Armour-Piercing Slugs is a unique and strong talent not found anywhere else that has great synergy with GPS (Gromril-Plated Shot), handgun, drakefire pistols and works well with Masterwork Pistol too. Taking Scavenged Shot, Superior Gaskets and Ablative Armour or Piston Power let’s you play a more melee powered Engineer while still mixing in ranged combat. Piston Power itself is a fun and undeniably unique talent with a cool effect and sound effect to boot. You can also take a loadout heavily focused on using your crankgun, like Experimental Steam Capacitors and Innovative Ammo Hoppers, or a build to stack power with Hunter, Leading Shots or Armour-Piercing Slugs + Full Head of Steam with drakefire pistols and so on. A lot of build variety and a lot of talents that are unique and work quite well on their own. Yes he doesn’t have any stupid overpowered broken synergy like Mist Shade, or super strong on his own like BW is, but I think that’s for the best.
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It is for the best, I personally don’t want to see cheesy/OP mechanics.
Admittedly he does have gems within his kit, Armour-Piercing Slugs probably being the best out of them. Leading Shot has great synergy with Hunter, Heat Sink, Resourceful and Scrounger too.
This ^^
Piston Power is prime example, it’s a cool and satisfying talent but doesn’t really mesh well with the rest of his kit. It’s pretty weapon specific too. (Based on weapon’s mass limit)
Utility Belt + Bombardier, sure Engineer can hold up to 3 bombs and boost them but it’s pretty weak synergy. I rarely fill up all 3 slots + allies and with no way to generate or conserve bombs, his bomb usage is lower than an RV with Ranger’s Parting Gift.
Scavenged Shot + Superior Gaskets, even with 10% melee power and 10% attack speed Engineer is pretty weak in melee, partially due to the lack of Smiter. Not to mention the ammo mitigation is poor.
Crank gun seems to be what a lot of people take issue with, mostly the amount of micromanagement/cranking required doesn’t feel proportional to the reward/DPS or justified relative to other ranged careers. Perhaps a little clunky, saps a lot of the enjoyment away.
If his melee capabilities were a bit better and he gained pressure stacks through melee, it would be a pretty fun game-play loop and actually encourage players to enter melee.
Other than that, Enginer steps on Ranger Veteran’s toes a little bit.
Bombardier would have been better suited in RVs kit, possibly replacing No Dawdling and have great synergy with Scavenger and Ranger’s Parting Gift.
Armour-Piercing Slugs would have good synergy with Firing Fury and be a good alternative to Master of Improvisation, sacrificing cooldown for more penetration, probably favored in Handgun builds especially.
Now we have 2 ranged careers on the same character, trying to balance them without one overshadowing the other or stepping on each other’s identity might prove challenging.
Right now, I think Engineer is pretty weak outside of Crankgun. Drake gun is also strong but IB can use that and offer far more.
Ideally, RV could be shifted towards a hybrid career and Engineer takes on the full DakkaDakka.
It would probably fit better lore wise and balance itself out; Lack of stealth/panic button would somewhat balance out a pure ranged glass cannon career.
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Yeah, I’m sure Engineer could use some tweaks here and there, but I think he’s mostly fine. It’s true that he doesn’t have any outstanding synergy between his talents and that they mainly work well on their own, but I’d be wary of synergy. It’s fun to have lots of talents that interact and empower each other, but that’s exactly what brings immense power to someone like Shade due to Mist of Cloak (lol?)synergising with Vanish, or old BW being able to take both Lingering and Famished. Personally I think Engineer is at an appropriate level of strength and viability when compared to the game itself, and the amount of synergy he currently has I am fine with. Again, not to say some tweaks aren’t needed, like maybe a decrease in the need for cranking, or a health buff etc. Definitely would agree with tweaking RV more towards a hybrid role with only a slight favour in ranged and a specialization in support as he currently has.
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Synergy problems really just depends on the talents in question.
Mist of Cloak is a ridiculously strong talent by itself, Vanish just sends it overboard.
Lingering is cheesy but pretty weak on its own, Famished just boosted it so much it came cheesy and OP.
When I say hybrid, I mean actually make RV enter melee for his ammunition; currently he can do literally nothing and be rewarded with neatly wrapped parcels of ammunition.
Support specialization is something to tread lightly on, it’s not a MOBA or MMO + every career has supportive capabilities, I wouldn’t focus on it and call it his identity.
Mercenary is a pretty good example, strong in his own right while lightly supporting allies.
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Of course, all characters are DPS first and everything else second. Ironbreaker is not an MMO tank where you taunt enemies and sit there getting healed by someone else. But the secondary specialization is still there.
Personally, I enjoy the support aspects that RV brings. Survivalist means you and your teammates can liberally use ammo as needed, Scavenger brings a steady stream of bombs and potions to everyone in your team which is very impactful. Ideally I’d also like Ingenious Improvisation remade to be something a bit more useful and reliable, like guaranteed duplication every X seconds or so. Vapours and alcohol is another aspect that makes RV more team focused, and it’d be interesting to see an ult talent that turns all his allies invisible at the cost of -50% duration or so.
And it’s not like RV gets gimped into being a pure support character this way, he’s still a strong ranged character in his own right, and he utilizes all of his support better than his allies can. Drinking a strength potion and chucking 2 bombs into a Chaos Patrol clears it and is very powerful, same with all of his potion drops, and his ult is certainly an impactful one as well, + his new pistol he can use makes him a beast against monsters (and it’s not just the pistol carrying him).
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A lot of people requested party wide stealth, I think one of the developers responded saying there are complications regarding client to host or whatever. But the game has progressed, banners exist and Disengage recently got updated to have a clear radius and be independent from RV (He can now leave and reenter stealth) so it could be in the realm of possibility now.
Maybe 30% Grungni’s Cunning, might start struggling with 10% caches, let alone Scavenger.
I’ve spoke my mind before on RVs support, it has scaling issues. Sure there are less enemies in lower difficulties but he still can’t really sustain himself, let alone allies.
I wouldn’t say he is gimped by taking Scavenger but he sure is sacrificing a lot of ammunition sustain for potential burst damage like your chaos pat example, players can typically deal with those situations without potions/bombs anyway.
I’m not sure what Fatsharks intentions are with RV’s bomb synergy vs Engineer’s bomb synergy, seems like they might step on each other’s toes/identity. Hopefully FS can give us some clarity.
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The RV definitely needs some work, or a rework, I know people love/like the career the way it is, but that doesn’t mean he isn’t in need of it. Now I know change is scary so I don’t want to make the people who enjoy RV feel threatened into losing the career they enjoy playing, but please understand he isn’t perfect, so I’ll do my best to explain some of the criticisms this career has.
Firstly, I have to say I really disagree with the attitude that RV has to be purely a “support” career. Not only does this not fit the lore of what a RV is, but you’re trying to shoehorn a type of class into a game that isn’t suited for it. Yes the drops from specials is a nice loot feature, but why should that mean his talent choices need to be so basic and one dimensional?
This brings me to my second point, not only do I dislike the way RV is “supposed” to be played, but I absolutely detest his talent tree, there just isn’t any real choice there. It’s fitting to call RV “Doom Ranger” because you’re doomed to play him a certain way, and this is the true reason why I personally hate this career, he’s far too one dimensional for my tastes. For example, someone explain to me why “Last Resort” is even an option on a career who periodically drops ammo from specials as a passive? This talent should be on GK if anything.
Then there is his ult, the CD is just way too long that I never use it, and only keep for bad situations as a hail marry attempt to try and save a run, and I don’t enjoy that. Yes it is powerful and has clutch potential but a near 3min CD, really? The HM has clutch potential, the GK is powerful, and the Shade has both in one, and yet neither careers have to deal with horribly long CD. I believe his ult is so long because it gives the player a damage increase to range, has CC element and grants the player invisibility and the player can leave the smoke with the talent and sure if you have all that then I guess it makes sense. All I’m asking is to have more choice with his ult talents that alter the way the ult works and the duration. Maybe one talent could reduce the CD time by 60 seconds, but you no longer gain the range damage boost and can’t leave the smoke cloud to keep invisibility, or a talent that turns the smoke grenade into a powerful grenade that kills surrounding enemies, knock backs stronger ones, and buffs your melee instead of your range by 50%. I just want to see some real choice on this career.
That’s my personal criticism out of the way, and why I just hate this career and never touch him, now onto the constructive part.
The “rework” is only really needed in his talent tree and the new talent tree needs to offer some real choice to the player. Lorewise, the RV is adept at range AND melee, so there’s no reason for the RV to not have a talent tree to reflect that, we could also have talents focused on that “support” role that some people like so much. That way the RV will have some variety to his play style.
THE TALENT REWORK SUGGESTIONS
Tier 1: RV needs THP on kill. Ingenious Improvement should be replaced (or combined) with Hardy Heart.
Tier 2: Last Resort, Master of Improvisation and Foe Fell honestly need to be removed.
Master of Improvisation can stay if it’s combined with Grungis Cunning and is now a shared aura talent. The 2nd talent should be something that is a blend of melee and range, (think of Engineers Scavenged shot for example) The other talent could be a bonus to crits, headshots, or adds a bleed modifier to range attacks.
Tier 3: This is simple enough, replace Bulwark with Smiter, and if not that then Assassin at least. (But only if they opt for the crit talent choice in tier 2) Though honestly, Smiter is the best one for him.
Tier 4: Replaced Grungis Calling with a talent that has say, a 5%/2% chance to drop a healing drought. This would be an excellent talent for deeds that don’t drop anything and will be real competition to scavenger and drunker brawler.
Tier 5: No Dawdling honestly needs to go, and Exuberance should be base kit, but it’s now a stackable talent, 8 stacks in total, (same max value as Huntsman Thick Hide) stacks are gained by landing any kind of headshot and are lost by taking a hit and/or decay over time. This will replace Fast Hands, and Fast Hands, is now combined with Firing Fury. As for No Dawdling, should it stay, then it should be combined with Foe Feller and buffed to 15% but work like WS talent, Fervent Huntress, that or a passive 10%. The talent that replaces Exuberance will buff RV’s dodge range by 20% and reduces block cost by the same amount.
Tier 6: Replace parting gift with a talent that reduces the CD by 60 seconds (or 45) and replaces the smoke bomb with a powerful grenade, that kills nearby enemies and knocks back powerful foes, instead of a boost to range power it grants a 50% bonus to melee damage.
Exhilarating Vapors, it reduces the CD by 60/45 seconds, it still grants invisibility, but you cannot leave the smoke, and do not gain the boost to range power.It keeps the support effect to allies but now it also adds a 25% multiplier to all healing sources for allies.
Finally, his HP should be buffed to 120.
That’s my recommendations for a “rework to RV” it respects the original build style for those who enjoy his more supportive role, while also giving players such as myself some real choice when playing him. There’s something for everyone in this talent tree and it’d make him a far more enjoyable experience.
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I 50/50 agree disagree with you. There are definitely some very obvious changes to some of his talents - THP on kill and removing the flat movement speed buff are a definite yes from me too.
I think Last resort is there to buff the power when throwing axes, - the cooldown on the ULT is in this row too if you want faster access to your ult, and as I build for speed Foe Feller is definitely something I’d like to stay. so this row (I think) can stay untouched.
I agree Grungi’s cunning is useless really as I think ammo is far too prevalent anyhow. I lean towards the fact THP and Healing are still quite abundant at Legend so adding a heal-pot might be just as redundant for 70% of the run. Something does need to change here though, you’re right about that.
Exuberance is too much of a bonus unless you’re specifically building to reduce your ULT cooldown by having the Reload Speed + Master of Improv to knock time off your countdown. No Dawdling is a lazy talent that needs to go.
Rangers parting gift is quite situational for the value it gives, and as you say a long cooldown restricts the use of this talent. 8% attack speed is ok, but restricted to the limited range of the smoke, and that means for me the best choice is to stay hidden and wander around thumping stuff.
My suggested changes therefore are; THP on Kill. Buff to Melee AND ranged as part of his ULT. Grungi’s cunning replaced with a ranger-unique potion. Off the top of my head something that converts THP into Green HP, or immunity to FF for three minutes or something.
I’d actually get rid of survivalist passive and have something else, dunno what though.
So as I began, I agree with half of what you suggest, but I have a great time playing RV with Great Axe and Handgun and lots of success - so the diversity is there and build options are there, but there are some tweaks needed.
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Ironically I’m 50/50 in agreement and disagreement with you too.
Last Resort was there, (I believe) since the start. I know for certain it was there before throwing axes, and they were added for the Slayer, not RV. Even if it is there purely for the throwing axes, it’s far too much of a niche talent and I just think it needs to go really.
To me Foe Feller is underwhelming and lazy. The way I feel about it is the same way you do in regards to No Dawdling, if however Foe Feller was combined with No Dawdling, and it was a passive 10% or buffed to 15% and worked like Fervent Huntress then I think it would be a good perk, perhaps even an excellent one. To be clear, I’m not fighting you on this, that’s just how I see it, as it stands Foe Feller is an uninteresting talent for me and I pick it only because I default to it, not because I necessarily like it.
I’m in agreement here, I think Grungi’s Cunning combined with Master of Improvisation, and the talent being shared, would make for an interesting range support talent, though should be an aura talent for balance purposes.
I might find RV ULT CD to be way too long, but I never use it to quicken ULT cooldown, RV is just too squishy on Legend and Cata for me to consider doing that. He only has 100hp and can be 1 shot by elites.
In regards to Rangers Parting gift, my complaint is mostly in the similarities between the ULT’s, as in, there’s very little variety between RV ult talents, they all pretty much function the same way but alter the ult in some slight way. I cant’ say I find a free bomb to be “exciting” especially now with the Engineer able to carry 3, and combine that with dupe chance and you got quite the payload. That’s why I mentioned the idea of perhaps Parting Gift being replaced with a talent that turns the smoke bomb into a powerful bomb ULT that buffs melee instead of range power. Maybe it’s my own bias here but this talent idea sounds fun to use in my head.
I’m actually in agreement with you here, I think RV needs a buff to melee and range too, lore wise it makes sense, and also he’s a Dawi, they’re not known for being “squishy” or poor fighters in melee. Again, might be my own bias here, but it’s weird, I don’t mind being a glass canon playing as elf, but I hate it on Bardin, partly because he’s a dwarf and it’s jarring to me, and partly because the elf typically has good survivability with her dodge count and ultimate choice, depending on the career.
As for the survivalist passive, yeah I’m in total agreement here, I’m not a big fan of it either, I don’t think it needs to be a passive. That doesn’t mean we necessarily have to remove ammo drops, having it as an optional talent is just fine. You can keep Grungis Cunning and combine it with Scavenger for example. The option is still there, and we could get a whole new passive for RV, which is something I’d like to see.
That said, I think we agree more than we disagree, the only disagreements I see is the direction, but regardless of that, the main point we agree on is that he does need some kind of rework. My only recommendation to the devs (assuming they read this) is that if the rework does come, and they do take on board some of our suggestions, then should they remove survivalist as a passive (which I think they should) then be sure to combine Grungis Cunning with Scavenger as a unique talent, for those players who enjoy that element of RV and ofc for deeds. That way we won’t be upsetting the status quo per say.
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I’d be fine with that. Front load the melee talents together and create space for a new, more thematic talent. I’d stick it on the lvl 25 row beside Exhuberance so players have to choose between speed and melee effectiveness versus defense.
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This would also be a good approach. I mean, look at how synergetic OE talents are. He gets melee damage AND ammo saving in one talent. He gets permanent pressure AND attack speed during the duration. He gets longer ult-bar AND 4 seconds of infinite ult when killing a special.
Of course, not all of his talents are like that. But this approach of combining two smaller bonuses into one package is exactly what makes talent choices more meaningful and creates more synergies between talents, abilities and also equipment.
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Throwing axes are one of THE staple Dwarf-Ranger weapons. I doubt they were added with primarily Slayer in mind, even though they work alot better with him.
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The throwing axes were added for Slayer during the WoM release.
This was a huge thing because Slayer was strictly a melee career until the throwing axes made their debut. Naturally the throwing axes will be better on the range focused career, but they were added for Slayer so that Slayer players would have access to a ranged weapon.
They were added for Slayer and Ranger. In lore, throwing axes are a staple dwarf ranger weapon. I don’t remember any statement that it was made especially for Slayer, just that it gave Slayer the only ranged weapon it can access.
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On the contrary, iirc, initially, it was at least implied that they’d be a RV exclusive.
This, so much! RV altogether isn’t a particularly bad career (a little lacking at the very most), but it’s just not what you’d expect a Warhammer dwarven Ranger to be. If you’d rename all his talents, the entire kit (HP, passive, active, talents, etc.) would make perfect sense for a slinky human or even halfling rogue type of character. Not a Dwarf.
Since RV isn’t the prime candidate for the part of “shooty dwarf” anymore, and I think he should lean more into a melee / hybrid role, and he should get some more “dwarven” aspects like toughness and damage instead of speed. His resources / improvisation aspect is pretty cool, though, so that is definitely something that should stay.
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Why would you give him THP on kill? He finally has the two best THP talents in the game — stagger and cleave — THP on kill is virtually useless by comparison.
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That’s easy to answer, THP on stagger only really works well on shields and Sienna’s dagger, otherwise it’s somewhat a busted talent. THP on cleave is self explanatory, it only works on weapons with high cleave. This means if RV was to bring the 1h axe, he’d not be able to get THP from stagger or cleave as the 1h axe is incapable of it. Having THP on kill would solve this problem and allow RV to utilize weapons that do not have good cleave or stagger THP gains, like the great axe.
In short, it’d allow RV to utilize every weapon in Bardin’s arsenal effectively. allowing the player more choice and freedom with builds and play style.
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Currently players are kind-of forced into a hammer build. I run greataxe and you can build THP in your ult if you dodge as the horizontal swing in the light pattern happens, but because he cannot generate THP without hammers I feel like I’m forced to have the damage reduction talent. Giving him THP on kill would open up the options.