Ranger Vet Bardin needs work

Well put and a great idea.

His ultimate should be more interesting for team interaction.
+Monster damage (or heck maybe + elite damage too) for team inside cloud, as a 30th lvl talent - would be neat. More interesting than thp generation and 8% attack speed for his team that he has as 30th lvl choice.

That got me an idea for another direction - make his ult have more utility in one of 30th lvl talent: What if his smoke bomb would make the teammates invisible as well? (Inside the cloud). Would make sense for a smoke grenade to do that. Just imagine 4 players mashing around inside cloud, while AI stands still brain-dead :smile:

About his dupe passives - they make sense only if you take the respective dupe trait on trinkets to stack the proc %. I don’t know whether they should be changed and how. Let’s not forget he has 50% more ammo and 15% reload speed as passives. These are not small passives, but not great either.

Overall i would like to have a bit more potential towards melee strength that you can build for, or have as a passive. Because RV has a lot of very warrior style helmets.
Instead of Last resort talent make something that augments cc weapons (shields, 2h hammer).
Instead of Exuberance talent give increased health by 25 and +1 stam shield (i really dont like on headshot dmg resist stuff, talents like this has a vibe ‘setting yourself for failure’).

If Engi has top firepower, then RV should have better support or melee talents. Ofc Grudge RV is top class thanks to reload speed stacking and ammo sustain, but there should be more to RV than that, more power to different playstyles (via different talent speccing).

3 Likes

RV and pyro used to be my least favourite classes, but since the re-work I have more fun with him than any other Bardin career, sheerly because of the variety of builds. IB will alwalys be more dependable. Slayer used to be way more fun before he was re-worked and the throwing axe was introduced - I find him pretty boring now because if you want to maximize your effectiveness you pretty much take throwing axe for specials and 2H axe or 2H hammer + Grimnir’s focus because it’s the most effective way to have blanket damage reduction up at all times. I used to love running dual axes + pick axe, but this build can no longer compete. Honestly, slayer builds would have more flexibility if Grimnir’s focus was replaced with Exuberance from the RV - it’s a great damage reduction talent that works well with any weapon.

Suggestions for RV:

  1. Give him THP on kill and Smiter so that he can use the 1H and 2H axe effectively (Bulwark and mainstay are largely redundant, get rid of THP on stagger - don’t shoe horn me into hammers, give me a proper choice).

  2. Eliminate Field Rations - nice idea but the buff is generic and picking up bottles is a chore. I don’t even bother with it anymore. Too much micromanagement. Replace this talent with a Proxy talent, so that the effects of any potion an RV drinks spread to the nearest player. This talent would synergize with the trait the RV has on his Charm: Proxy = effect spreads to 2 team mates, Concoction, Decanter work normally on the RV and modify the proxy effect passes on to the teammate. Home Brewer works as normal. By keeping the new Proxy talent on the same tier as Scavenger you ensure that you can’t make a OP potion master build.

  3. Replace Ingenious Improvisation passive with a Healshare passive - party members healed for 20% of their health when RV consumes a heal item. This would allow the level 5 Hardy Heart talent to be replaced with THP on Kill giving more build variety. More importantly, the RV can have healshare that benefits the entire party and fulfills his ‘support’ role while still being able to generate THP from melee kills to stay alive.

I think talents along these lines would reinforce the identity of the RV as a support class and differentiate him from the Outcast Engineer that will be more ranged focused.

1 Like

I think this talent is rather cool and one of your few options to spec more melee oriented if that’s what you want, and it also helps make throwing axes a bit more useable (though admittedly by no means good). I’d rather see it tweaked to be less of a hassle. As I posted above I think if it wore off one stack at a time it’d be fine.

A solid idea, but I don’t think they’d do this for RV alone, so more likely to come with an across the board row 5 rework if at all.

For sure that would be good, especially regarding Smiter, and I don’t think anybody likes Bulwark so that’s a wider issue that isn’t just limited to RV. Just wanna add though that THP on stagger also gives you the choice to run a shield for THP scumming and safety which can be rather nice with stuff like Grudge builds. Knock everything back into a nice cluster then blast 'em. It’s a nice option so I certainly hope it stays.

I’ve had a similar thought! Would be cool, though now I’m imagining a team sitting in a smoke cloud while a boss stands perfectly still and BH just gets to Ult it in the face continuously even easier than normal :joy:

I don’t really agree with the idea that Ranger Veteran is a “support” career; V2 is not a MMO or MOBA.
Other careers offer more consistent, stronger supportive capabilities yet never labeled as such.

His ammunition “support” is lacking in lower difficulties, it’s not feasible to share many 10% caches in higher difficulties. Others have pointed out Exhilarating Vapours is somewhat clunky and feels like a discount Merc ult on a longer cooldown.
Ales are also pretty clunky, it will probably take 6 - 8 minutes for the entire party to reach 3 ale stacks.

The “Support” label just seems like a way to justify the flawed and weak parts of his kit.

4 Likes

Monster DPS on RV can be huge with 2h axe built for speed inside his ULT. Admittedly it’s only one build, but he can do some very solid damage with the 2h axe - and as he can get a ridiculous level of speed with it there only needs to be the adjustment mentioned(giving him smiter) to make the 1h/2h axe amazing nad boost his DPS.

I’d lean against giving him team-wide buffs, as the vast majority of the QP community are Mah GREEN CIRCLES! And RV would be picked even less if he gave other people the circles instead. Bardin’s ult needs to add damage to his melee too, and offer something for Bardin alone - maybe something as simple as being able to move through enemies or buffed crit chance might be enough to elevate it’s usefulness a bit.

RV suffers from something all of bardin’s carreers have, to some extent: Lack of a “kit”. His talents and weapon choices are, basically, only a loose assortment of picks, rather than being able to build a concept.
Is also doesn’t help that his passive skill is very limited in its utility: On Legend and above, due to the abundance of specials, you and your team almost drown in supplies, to the point where you can’t even reasonably use all the potions, bombs and ales you get spewed at your feet - but during end events, it becomes noticably more random how useful the skill is and during lords, it becomes completely useless. That’s a big problem for me, because especially during, say, a fight against Rasknitt on Legend or Cata, where is additional supply drops would be a true boon to the team, they are absend, essentially nullifying his carreer passive and restricting it to situations where constant availability of supplies isn’t even that much of an asset.
What would be a solution? First of all: Splitting drops between specials and elites. I mean, we already have a counter-gimmick on Grail Knight and his strength pot, why not do the same for RV? Let the ammo drop on special kill, and let everything else from his talent row (ale, potions, bombs) drop on killing elites. Increase ammo drop to 20% max ammo and leave it there, and let Bardin choose between ale, potions and bombs with different elite-kill ratios (e.g. 5 for ale, 10 for pots and 8 for bombs, something like that).
Give RV access some kind of grudge-mechanic. I mean, BH gets DR for special kills and elite kills, why not give something like that as an option for Bardin, but make it either attack speed or a small power boost. This could even be its own talent row with different options (attack speed, movement speed, power or crit chance). This would easily give him more of a focus towards special- and elite killer, while allowing you to build around different weapons and mechanics more easily (stacking AS is good for melee, more crit chance allows for building around Hunter).

I am still advocating for RV getting an option for stuff doing additional things on him when taking the corresponding drop-talent:
When choosing bombs, his regular bombs should make enemies bleed, and his fire-bombs should last 100% longer.
When choosing potions, each type of potion could have additional effects (strength pot: 50% DR; con-pot: +25% crit chance, speed pot: generates 3 temp healh pers second), or simply heal him for 30 true health (no wound removing).
His ales could also increase his (and only his) headshot damage, or stack 4 times instead of 3 just for him.

I would also advocate to give him more throwing axes to make them viable on RV (they are actually pretty solid on Slayer).

RV isn’t too far off, but it’s little wonder why, from my experience, RV is amongst the least picked carreers in the game (and 90% of the time, he is just an ale dispenser with a handgun).

RV just needs a true kit to work with, and let’s face it: access to more ranged weaponry. I truly hope the new engineer masterwork pistol will be available to RV, which will open up a new playstyle. But I am also still stronlgy advocating for giving RV access to BoP, which is absolutely lore-friendly (there is, iirc, a model called “Master Engineer with Brace of Pistols”, which is, admittedly, the master engineer - and more of a bag of pistols than a brace -, but there’s no reason why it shouldn’t be available to RV, too), something that would only need a handful of new models, as the mechanis are already there, and it would give RV, again, access to a completely new playstyle.

2 Likes

Actually, probably not. RV plays better with Engi’s Weapons. lol

2 Likes

1: Have Ingenious Improvisation apply to the entire team

2: Either give as passive or as new talent, but have something to increase melee damage taken by enemies you’ve shot in the last 3-5 seconds.

3: Give access to drakefire weapons and modify talents to suit. Would suffice to change reload to reload or vent, maybe allow overcharge to be automatically vented by killing elites?

Also like the idea of toughening him up with health and stamina, maybe even some damage resistance as well to really push home the hybrid aspect. If he can’t outshoot the engineer then he can outfight him, clutch and support the team while doing so

2 Likes

I don’t think we should underestimate the insane reload speed Ranger Veteran can get. Engineer doesn’t outshoot him (aside from the Crank Gun) as they have different kits. While the penetration bonus of Engineer is nice, the increased reload is the safer option as you have less down time and can switch more freely to melee for blocking or just shoot again. In addition, you have the active skill which increases the damage even further and gives you safe room by being unattacked and stagger nearby enemies.

It will take some time for people to realized but the absence of a panic button for the Engineer will cause some discussion.

2 Likes

Engineer is actually overall kinda weak compared to RV with the new weaponry

being able to sustain and spam the masterwork pistol makes for some absolutely bonkers damage output; the damage bonus from RV ult takes it even further too, if wanted

4 Likes

Yeah I’d agree, any fear I did have is gone.
Now I’m just left partially disappointed at Engineers kit, I would say he is better in lower difficulties due to less reliance on specials but he turns into a crank mini game fiesta in Cataclysm; rather clunky.

Experimental Steam Capacitors + Innovative Ammo Hoppers seems to be the way to go, one crank every 12 seconds can keep max pressure stacks up. Otherwise you’ll have to do 4 - 5 cranks every time after firing.

It suffers the same problem as Throwing Axes, too much time is spent animation locked.

2 Likes

I feel like it’s fitting for him to be micro heavy, though it probably wouldn’t be bad is it was toned down a bit. I do really like the versatility the crank gun brings. Having effectively two ranged weapons and being able to spec the crank gun more towards horde clear or single target then still having your ranged weapon to cover what it lacks.

Superior gaskets also seems like a nice way to reduce micro if you like to just save up your Ult then dump it all in one burst. Crank 4 times then forget till it’s full.

Anyway back on topic yeah, RV is absolutely fine, especially now he has the pistol at his disposal.

RV still has some glaring flaws, the Pistol is just a nice addition and offers him a way to deal some meaningful boss DPS.

Regarding the Crank gun:

Gromil plated shots = 30 rounds or 2 second ult charge per shot.
Base crank gun/compression chamber = 80 rounds or 0.75 second ult charge per shot
Ammo Hoppers = 120 rounds or again 0.75 second ult charge per shot

Takes roughly 30 seconds to refill the entire ult bar at max pressure stacks, roughly 45 for Ammo Hoppers and 7 - 10 seconds to expend an entire ult bar.

Feathering the Crank gun with Steam capacitors can also help conserve ult charge.
Gromril plated shots need an AP buff for sure, maybe even a damage buff to justify the ult charge per shot and low rate of fire.


I couldn’t find it in the patch notes but they also stealth buffed RV.
Disengage no longer ends when leaving the smoke cloud, RV can re-enter + the radius now has a clear outline and appears bigger than before. A huge quality of life improvement that is much appreciated.

2 Likes

Seems to chew up SV and most specials well enough, especially with the piercing shot talent, but feels pretty bad against CWs, and weirdly weak against infantry for its fire rate. I think there’s significant damage falloff too? At least felt like it though I assume that’s true for the Ult generally not just Gromril.

I’d think at least Gromril getting less damage dropoff than the base Ult and doing a touch more damage to CWs and maybe infantry too wouldn’t make it too strong but only played a few missions with it so far so I might be pretty off base here. As a side note it’s awesome how it changes the crank gun’s appearance. Really cool detail. Now I kinda wish BH’s different Ult talents changed how the gun looks.

Outcast Engineer needs rework. And he needs a some buffs.

Currently I would always choose RV over Outcast Engineer for high difficulties (Cataclysm+, modded). The Engineer has in itself a very balanced talent set, but the talents provide almost nothing and the ult itself requires much micromanaging for almost no gain (Cranking to make ult recharge).

Just by comparing the ults between RV and Engineer:
RV with his ult can provide:

  • thp
  • stagger/crowd control
  • invisibility
  • almost instantaneous ult

the only downsides are low cooldown and not instant ult (like whc, mercenary)

If you now look at the engineer who needs to warmup his minigun and also has to constantly crank up to make the cooldown charge I see no reason to choose the engineer.

And even the horde destruction of the minigun is already given by the RV + Grudgeraker + Extra ammo, which on higher difficulties provides infinite ammo for you and teammates.

1 Like

I guess time will tell where he ends up placing in the meta. Even if it looks like he needs a bit of help, a rework seems like overkill. Lots of things that could be tweaked to make him play smoother and reduce the micro. Even just faster cranking would make a decent difference. Pressure stacks could wear off one at a time etc. The core design and talent tree seems very cool and unique to me at the moment, would much rather see tweaks to what he’s currently got.

1 Like

i feel like the ranger is lacking something. maybe it’s because dwarf melee weapon aren’t that great. hes not very good at fighting by himself. hence he leans towards range dmg.

i think if in the end ur range kills isn’t 3 or 4 times of ur melee kill u’re doing it wrong with ranger lol.

i would keep the 10% dupe. but on top of that i would add “when bardin dupes items in any ways, he spawns another item of the same type on him” so if he dupes a bomb while in ult, he spawns another bomb. let ranger be like the walmart of careers lol.

also give ranger “+1 (or double) shot in all weapon magazine”. so crossbow/handgun has 2 shots, shotgun has 3 (or 4) shots, and the throwing axe has however more (i never use it and dont remember how many it comes with by default).

also the talent that spawns booz (sometimes) when a special dies. make that buff party wide. if 1 person drinks it, all 4 people gets the buff (stack up and refreshes duration too). so we dont have to run around and try to get us all murdered by chugging booz constantly.

1 Like

¿How about this? Bardin can take 2 potions of any type + grim, (like engineer’s bombs)

2 Likes

My suggestion would be to simply make RV a) more reliable and b) make his talents work more in tandem. Engineer and GK are actually amongst the most well designed carreers in this regard. Both carreers have employed new mechanics that can be used to great effect in RV.

My suggested changes:

  1. Increase ammo drops from special to 20% max ammo. Tie every other drop to Elite kills, akin to GK’s strength pot drops. This would make drops alot more consistent and less random.
  2. Give bomb drops to engineer. He needs the bombs, it is more fitting. Leave ammo and pots to RV.
  3. Level 20 talents for drops from Elites: a.) Extra ammo drop for 10% ammo every 3-5 elite kills. Will remove the absurd amounts of ammo from Grungni’s cunning while still allowing to supply the team with more. b) Pot drops every 10 elite kills. Again: more reliability, and less situations where pots either don’t drop at all or drop so often you can’t reasonably use them. c.) Get rid of the ale, it’s funny, but almost a meme, a pain to pick up and overall, just plain silly. Since GK can provide regen, make it health pot drop every 20 or so elite kills.
  4. Give each talent in level 20 something special (e.g.: when selecting pots, they might have additional effects or heal for 20 true health when Bardin consumes them). Give the extra-ammo talent an additional 10% ranged damage and/or effective weapon range. Give the health pot talent some kind of defensive capabilities.
  5. Ingenious Improvisation might as well not exist. Effect is small, unreliable, even when stacked with other “chance to not consume” talents. Replace with (yes, I think this would not be unbalanced at all): “Bardin can carry 2 of each items”. As in: RV gets two healing item slots, two potions slots, two bombs slots. Only restriction: No two books in the same slot.
  6. Yeah, give him 125 health. Might as well. It just feels wrong that Bardin has a 100 health carreer to begin with, and none of his “low health” carreers is really that strong that it warrants balancing him via low health.

I think RV can be made to work if his talents cater more towards his “jack of all trades” thing he got going on. He could actually be quite straight forward. I mean, he could get one row of talents where the choices are flat bonuses with small conditional bonuses.
E.g.: Foe Feller: +5 Attack speed, +another 3 if condition x is met. Or a talent for flat 15% DR and another 5 if condition x is met. Or a talent for +10% power, plus another 5% if condition x is met.

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