What’s funny is that Survivalist ALSO used to scale the rumbler like crazy because it replenished a full nade each time it triggered. So it’s yet another example of an easily abusable mechanic that Vet doesn’t get to have, but it’s fine for the new premium class
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I don’t know what to say other than just learn how to use it, it definitely has a higher skill ceiling
Days without forum people insuniating people caring for Vet balance are not good enough to play Exe Stance: day 0
I also play Exe Stance all the time in auric. Just because we want some things to be stronger and more useful, doesn’t mean you’re the only one who can play the forbidden Exe Stance.
Actually, before Havoc released, my most played ultimate was Stealth purely because I liked to clutch with noobs in my team by doing multiple revives per mission and in some lobbies people simply ignored revives and objectives, so I had to do it alone most of the time.
I have hundreds of Havoc 40 games under my belt playing Vet, even during season 2 when it was the least played class, I don’t need to pretend Exe Stance is underrated or requires some special skill to play.
It’s not about Exe Stance, it’s other classes getting a better version of that ability after Vets kit was nerfed multiple times in the past for the same things they now give to other classes.
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I like vet personally. But it’s still kind of hard to justify taking anything but VoC for me (at least when try-harding). I like occasionally going Infiltrate but you get some hate until they see how you play. Noobs giving it a bad name, but such is their right.
Scum is much more melee oriented. They have one ability that turns them into a ranged powerhouse, and I do think it might be a little overtuned. Was the most braindead H40 I’ve ever done when I ran desperado. I mean still requires being smart, but less. Lol.
It’s fun, and should remain in some viable form.
The issue is that I don’t really think Uzis are OP without Desperado, so nerfing them would be wrong. And various scum talents in the ranged department are required to make a ranged Dual Stub pistols build work well. Like, vulture’s mark is really nice, the clip size as well.
Probably just need to limit the duration of desperado a little bit more.
But I do agree that playing with some desperado players can be boring. Like you said, if you’re melee and they spray hordes for no reason, or use it when they don’t need to, and then when you’re pinned by ranged fire they don’t have it. That literally just happened to me in a low havoc. Entire team pinned by a bunch of gunners, I’m holding the frontline of melee enemies, someone else watching our flank, psyker spraying everything with fire, desperado guy.. melee-ing with me. I went down to bullets. Thanks bro.
They do need to learn if they’re going a ranged build, they’re the anti-ranged on the team. No scum hate btw, I love mine.
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That’s until you realize that good Vets shoot and switch targets fast, meaning you actually get way less ammo in return than people killing one enemy every 5 second.
Not to mention Havoc enemies which take twice as much shots with many weapons, meaning you spend way more ammo than you get back.
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I remember the extremely brief period where they buffed all the basic ranged enemies and it suddenly slowed games WAY down because even basic scab shooters could ruin your day once more, this indirectly forced teams to cohere and made vets actually matter because being caught out was practically a death sentence and you needed precision fire to counter the squads.
I did grumble about it because it was an undeclared change but it was really good to have and then they reverted it back.
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TBH it wasn’t a good change, because we already have disablers, snipers, bursters, Crushers, Maulers and Ragers which can instantly down you if you’re caught out of position. Adding even more enemies that can just instantly down you is bad design. At least it wasn’t a good change the way they implemented it, maybe some other iteration of it could be A-OK.
As a mission modifier that buffs shooter or adds new stronger variants it would be completely fine, but not something ON TOP of the usual shock troop gauntlet shenanigans with classic 10 mutants, 10 poxbursters, 5 Crushers, 5 trappers one after the other.
It just turns the game into “don’t get hit, ever” when half the enemies can just instantly down you on their own.
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That’s not really a response to anything I actually said but sure buddy 
You’re so, so, so close to understanding. C’mon, you can do it, I genuinely have faith in you. I’m gonna do my best to articulate this in the best way I can, so bear with me. I’m pretty bad at articulation, but here goes…
You see… if Enemies other than Crushers and Disablers were the threats they’re supposed to be, and a select handful of Weapons weren’t overperforming against Carapace? Crushers and Disablers wouldn’t need to be spammed like they currently are.
This wouldn’t be making Ranged Enemies more powerful “on top of” the current Enemy spam, because the issue at hand is that nothing but Crushers and Disablers are currently threatening us sufficiently, and we’re able to kill Crushers way faster than we should. There’s an equilibrium to be reached, and that WILL involve reducing Crusher and Disabler spam. Don’t you worry about that.
Crushers wouldn’t be anywhere near as much of a slog to fight if you were fighting, like, 1-3 at a time at rarer intervals instead of getting a pack of 4+ every few rooms. They’re currently Minibosses with the spawn rates of Elites.
Meanwhile Disablers being so relevant is because… how do I put it? They’re able to take you out of the fight in one fell swoop, that being in a similar manner to Crushers. They wouldn’t need to be spammed in clown car numbers if the AI Director could rely on a wider array of Enemies to threaten us Players.
This is all compounded by Ranged Enemies and Hordes not being enough of a threat to us on their own without those insane Crusher and Disabler spawns right now… unless you’re using a Weapon that’s still balanced for pre-Patch #13 Enemy Density, of course. Infantry Lasguns being an example off the top of my head of such a Weapon, and they desperately need buffs.
You’re referring to the buffs to Shooters seen in SotMG? They weren’t THAT significant, just enough to make Veterans who countered them effectively feel more valuable as Teammates.
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To add some more emphasis to what @Khorne_Dawg said here, is it any wonder why some of FS’ chosen Havoc “difficulty” modifiers with the current p*ss-poor joke we call “game balance” suffocating under the weight of the outliers of Golden Toughness, Infinite Cleave, DS, Uncanny + DOTs etc., are a combination of:
and
And lowered max Health & Toughness values?
Soon:tm: but not soon enough 
Woe betide me for not abusing the meta and forcing myself into the annoying slogs of bashing my head against the walls of fully armoured 10ft tall, stagger-immune-on-cd heretical best boys 
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Criticism isn’t throwing a hissy fit.
Maybe think about why you’re white knighting for a game company.
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Yes sure, but that honestly under rates the issue with gunslinger improved. I’m not gonna pretend survivalist was ever as lop sided in how it grants ammo as the new aura is. Like this is straight clown coding.
Here’s how the aura actually works for anyone unaware:
Yes you too can give your Ogryn friend 7 rumbler shots by picking up a small ammo pickup in their vicinity with an Agrip brauto.
I guess it’s finally a legitimate reason to run graia brauto 
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Wait, is that how it works? Why would they do that when they could have just returned 1.5% or 5% of reserve to anyone in coherency picking up a small/large ammo respectively rather than calculating and giving flat numbers of ammo?
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A recurring and ever poignant question when it comes to Darktide.
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Yes in a vacuum exe stance is way better than VoC, but sadly we are not in a vacuum; we have a set health and toughness pool, a lot of slottable skills, a variety of weapons, and teammates. All these are a bonus to VoC and a malus to Exe stance. Exe stance is super buffed and still feels unsynergistic on vet which frankly is a bit sad.
Two plain 10% toughness damage reduction / four 5% toughness damage reduction operator modifier skills would have more synergy with the buffed exe stance than all current fancy nodes but sadly these were removed the same patch…
I also know that there is a built in thy wrath be swift to superbuff your melee allowing vet to make very good use of the heavy sword…
So my point is not wawawa exe stance bad it is exe stance super cool but vet skills do not support the use of exe stance.
I want my plain toughnes damage reduction nodes back, I want to use highlight ogrins and gunners at the same time, I want a masters retribution on vet. If that’s too strong I am fully ok with the toughness regen from exe stance to be reduced to 5%.
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Idk why any Scum would even pick Gunslinger Improved considering they already have infinite ammo with pickpocket and they better off just let teammate grab ammo box instead.
Also comparing old Survivalist with Scum is dumb, Survivalist give infinite ammo to the entire team while Scum only have it for himself, if anything people should ask FS to make something similiar to Pickpocket for Vet rather than bringing back old Survivalist.
That is if FS really think range focus operative with infinite ammo is balance for the game ofc. Vet with infinite ammo Plasma is certainly gonna be something.
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Calling out embarrassing behavior in a community is not “white knighting”. I have had plenty of criticisms of Fatshark over the many years I’ve been on this forum. It’s people throwing tantrums over the class not being what they wanted and now . . . apparently better than Vet, one of the best classes in the game, when Hive Scum is mid at best . . .
I can get complaints about non-functioning talents, or poorly-implemented mechanics. I can get raising a ruckus over the horrendous bugs and server issues that plague the game.
But this amounts to “wah, I wanted my vet to be the one to shoot constantly, not the new class!”
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Keep on strawmanning and gaslighting.
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If you disagree, feel free to do so, but just because you disagree with my or anyone else’s take on Vet’s balancing and dev’s decisions to remove and then reintroduce his class features eslewhere, doesn’t mean you’re superior.
To me it seems like you refuse to understand what’s our issue and keep putting words in our mouths, as if it’s us who says “Vet is weak”, when it’s ONLY you who says that.
You don’t have to post here either.
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I agree, I think the machine gun turret RP ganger replaces psyker, not vet. Granted assuming your group understands the game well enough to not need psyker bubble
Agreed on both points. Additionally, although I think the machine gun turret RP ganger build replaces vet (I think it will replace fire stick/bubble psyker if the group is competent enough), it is cringe that the pay class gets access to infinite ammo and complete ranged damage immunity both from their ability and keystone. There is a counterargument that psyker technically gets infinite ranged Ammo and can go ranged immune with bubble, but it’s realistically not comparable because psykers infinite ammo guns are either the fire stick which has vastly lower range than the uzis or dual stubs, and the fire stick is a dot weapon, not a direct dmg weapon. The only way psyker can get infinite ranged Ammo on direct dmg is the tazer stick’s light attacks which most groups would decline in havoc because it would underperform especially now when compared to the machine gun turret ganger build.
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