Problematic Talents and Talent Rows

[Rebel]

Update

• Talents:

5% attack speed is not worthy of being called an entire talent.

Neither is 5% crit chance.

What exactly does 10% movement speed do for you? And is it worth trading 30% or 40% DR for it?

This one is honestly baffling to me. How on earth is 5% power a talent? That is an extremely small boost, I can’t imagine what it could possibly achieve. More than that, it’s competing with 20% attack speed. Seriously?

Way too much micromanagement for only a medium-sized boost. You can’t pair this with Volans Doctrine, so without losing a large amount of attack/charge speed you have to keep venting to stay inside a small zone of overheat. Pretty sure you’re better off just ignoring the whole thing and spamming ranged normally.

Cool effect, but without the ability to generate bombs, or reliably dupe them like Ranger, this talent is worthless. You’ll get like, what, 3 bombs in an average QP match?

[dannylew8299]

@Rebel

What exactly does 10% movement speed do for you? And is it worth trading 30% or 40% DR for it?

I’m of the controversial opinion that a movement speed talent is mostly fine.

For Shade she has a weird talent tree, period. Gladerunner is beside a move speed on crit and 20% DR on crit. Picking Glade on her is easy.

Move speed on RV is fun, the whole class is a meme anyway so might as well play Doom Dwarf.

Can’t make an excuse for Huntsman. Even for memes, he has nothing that makes running fast necessary or beneficial and has to give up way more than Shade or RV do. Even if you reshuffled his talent tree, you couldn’t put Longshanks anywhere with fair competition.

[Frostysir]

Well seeing that no one else has done it in this thread i´ll toss a few coins on the dead horse that has already been debated to death, repeatedly.

Bloodshot is way too powerful for the competition to hold a candle in general(except swiftbow/serrated) while Drakira´s alacrity is so weak even relative to Serrated arrows it might as well be added as a passive and replaced with a blank.

This row seems fine on paper but a tiny boost to her already very low regen that only goes to 50% isnt really a talent in terms of fun or power. Spirit arrows meanwhile trades that regen for offensive power which seems like more fun but then you consider that her Trueflight ability isnt exactly interactive or reliable in any way. Which gets even worse with the presently ongoing bloodshot bug.

Then we have the Rejuvenating locus talent that should be the best by far since it helps the team in bad times but it also hits the bottleneck of being low with the considerable extra downside of tilting any and all zealots you might meet in QP.

Third verse is almost the same as the first with one talent being so ridiculously powerful relative to the other two that its not even a competition, Asrai Focus being the one. Then we got Fervent Huntress seemingly promoting a more aggressive style but…15% more movespeed for 10 seconds for killing an elite is not really much of a talent either. You could fuse it with alacrity and it´d still not get picked over Asrai focus. Or bloodshot or even serrated if placed on that row.

But really anything and everything beats Ricochet which doesnt even work at all more often than not. Talent description states that projectile will bounce up to 3 times but when testing in keep/a few maps i usually cant get more than two bounces, sometimes just one. And that´s not even mentioning how its useless in practice in any open area.

“Edit”

Honorable mentions to Kurnous locking any and all ammo demanding weapons to itself.

[Fauchames]

Maybe I have my opinion on OE and his Bombardier talent.

1. I keep her basic liabilities because she is unique.

2. I add an option like the GK. (Get a potion of strength, except the engineer will get him a bomb)
   After 75 enemies killed by “Outcast Engineer”, the player receives a bomb.

[darewa]

@Rebel

Way too much micromanagement for only a medium-sized boost. You can’t pair this with Volans Doctrine, so without losing a large amount of attack/charge speed you have to keep venting to stay inside a small zone of overheat. Pretty sure you’re better off just ignoring the whole thing and spamming ranged normally.

This is the level 20 talent, Volans is level 25. It’s not that bad honestly. You can vent or you can just exist at 100% abusing the fact that one spell can never cause an overheat at long as you wait about ~4s in between casts. Personally I run Pyromancer as a melee-focused class though so I always take One With the Flame, but if you are focusing on ranged it’s OK.

@Rebel

Cool effect, but without the ability to generate bombs, or reliably dupe them like Ranger, this talent is worthless. You’ll get like, what, 3 bombs in an average QP match?

In my engineer rework thread I recommended engineer starting with a bomb automatically and bombadier starting with another bomb (two total). It’s not a comparatively bad talent honestly because every talent on that row is pretty bad and double bomb damage can melt patrols. It’s just 100% unreliable.

@Frostysir

But really anything and everything beats Ricochet which doesnt even work at all more often than not. Talent description states that projectile will bounce up to 3 times but when testing in keep/a few maps i usually cant get more than two bounces, sometimes just one. And that´s not even mentioning how its useless in practice in any open area.

Ricochet needs some kind of homing ability after it bounces.

[Frostysir]

@darewa

Ricochet needs some kind of homing ability after it bounces.

I swear that would probably overload all our toasters combined somehow, so i´d rather just have it replaced.

Lets not gamble too much with complex stuff.

[Kitten]

WS last 2 rows really need looking at.

Also Shade Talents are mostly bad/force you to take a very optimal build, as there’s no interesting stats or incentives for other playstyles. 2H Weapons/1H Axe aren’t worth using on her, and 2H Weapons don’t work because they don’t have the mobility nor any Stamina from her Talents. (other than Spear CDR/AS build obviously)

@darewa

“let’s not take double shotted” said literally no one ever.

Just Reward can be pretty decent for Special killing btw. I played with 10% CDR/Stam on Trinket and it works well.

Obviously Double-Shotting Bosses to death in a corner is OP though, but Just Reward is a decent Talent overshadowed by Double-Shotted.

@Rebel

What exactly does 10% movement speed do for you? And is it worth trading 30% or 40% DR for it?

DR wins, but Move Speed is viable in that having enough allows you to walk out of attacks. If you’re feeling tryhard, there’s a chance some Movement Speed builds could be better than DR.

The most viable Move Speed build probably being Zealot.

@Rebel

Neither is 5% crit chance.

@Rebel

5% attack speed is not worthy of being called an entire talent.

I do use these in certain builds, but 10% would be nice. AS stacking on Pyro can be really strong (finger-breaking Dagger gameplay, or spamming Heavies with Flail and constant Hunter uptime), and so can Crit stacking on HM (15% Power goes from FF or a random AoE for 0.1 seconds, and you don’t always benefit from pushing for Power+AS if you’re kiting high density).

Would prefer these flat stat Talents to become something more interesting and active.

Enhanced Power is an issue too, imo. The fact that it gives you Power (Damage/Cleave/Stagger), as well as Stagger damage bonuses, is really weird, and I don’t find myself taking anything else quite often. Suppose on Legend-, where Power is capped, it’s not always the best.

@Rebel

Similar situation here. Smite is a joke

I’ve been playing this build:

https://www.ranalds.gift/heroes/12/121333/79-1-8-6/64-3-5-2/6-3-5/1-4-2/1-7-3

It works really well tbh. The on-demand Crits vs Elites and Bosses with Dual Hammers is really nice.

For me this benefits me more as I don’t have to run CDR/Crit on Trinket and can run Stamina/CDR instead.

The benefits over Castigate are no reliance on a certain HP if you get healed spammed for some reason, and the Crits on Elites. Also Swiftslaying uptime on Bosses is kind of underrated for Weapons like this.

Downsides are that it’s only really good on Dual Wield Weapons, since you can get 2 procs on every heavy. Works the same on Merc.

[Drakonhammer]

@Rebel

What exactly does 10% movement speed do for you? And is it worth trading 30% or 40% DR for it?

The problem I have with Gladerunner in particular is that it’s in a tier with another movement speed talent. FS should keep one or the other, not both. As it stands now if you don’t want movement speed you have only one choice. That tier should be DR, MS and a third option. (I personally don’t like MS talents at all but I’d be okay with them leaving one for those who do).

@Rebel

This one is honestly baffling to me. How on earth is 5% power a talent? That is an extremely small boost, I can’t imagine what it could possibly achieve. More than that, it’s competing with 20% attack speed. Seriously?

Ignoring the fact Zealot needs some bigger changes, a quick fix for Unbending Purpose would be: Fiery Faith stacks up to 7 times and you start with 1 stack at full hp. Instant synergy with his level 20 talents. That anyway seems to be kinda what the talent is going for seeing as Fiery Faith grants 5% power per stack. Still probably not as good as Castigate but it’d be more flavourful. A rework would still be best.

@Rebel

Cool effect, but without the ability to generate bombs, or reliably dupe them like Ranger, this talent is worthless. You’ll get like, what, 3 bombs in an average QP match?

imo Bombardier should be built into OE’s three bomb passive and a new talent take its place.

Pyro just needs a total rework and level 10 talents that are as interesting as BW’s but unique to Pyro. I’d like to see her level 20 talent tier retooled to scale with passive stacks again as well, it’d make her tree feel less like a jumbled mess again.

Burning skull needs a buff too, not to pre nerf levels, but right now it kills maybe one or two unarmoured enemies then leaves, it’s not good beyond THP and staggering bosses, it needs more punch - or a rework. Right now it’s a severely gimped trueflight.

@Kitten

@Rebel

Neither is 5% crit chance.

@Rebel

5% attack speed is not worthy of being called an entire talent.

I do use these in certain builds, but 10% would be nice.

10% would feel a lot better. The talents are just boring stat increases however, especially Pyro’s when you compare it to what BW has on that tier. I’d like to see more creative talents on that tier, e.g. (as a random example) fully charging spells increases their aoe and cleave by 50%. Some sort of change that is impactful but not the same as what BW gets.

[Sleezy]

@darewa

“let’s not take double shotted” said literally no one ever.

Double-shotted isn’t badly designed as a talent. Probably a bit too strong, especially on difficulties where monsters have lower hp. Buckshot just needs to have more CDR attached to it and then it’s really good to have as a horde clear option.