Powered weapons

Proof please of any of the completely incorrrect and immediately debunked by my videos points you have please ?

“he doesnt understand the game” laughs in got cleave wrong, got hitmass wrong, got weapons lore role wrong, and has just been griefing this whole time for no possitive gain for the game and provides no in game evidence.

Disregards another player coming in and pointing out the same exact problem PLAYER AGENCY to have the weapon operate on who they want it to operate on at any given time … Its like if the plasma gun autotargetted only poxwalkers first and you couldnt aim it at any elites until all the poxwalkers were gone. or brainburst (hey thats actually a brainburst problem it frequently will lock onto enemies close to your target instead)

also disregards the INCREDIBLE time to kill difference between psycher with a weapon “optimized” for heavily armored targets. and a drunk sharpshooter holding down left click and spraying in all directions with an all arounder weapon.

the fact that you can’t see why thats a problem shows that you are either completely ignorant of game design, disingenious or just outright trolling the comments here looking to cause a fight for your own entertainment.

for the record i clapped vermintide 1&2 on all difficulties and i have beaten all difficulties on this one too, Space hulk deathwing have done the same. I play dark souls series, played almost every 40k game out there including Eternal crusade also warned them when they made the choice that tanked the game and played it well past them tanking the game.Love me some team ninja and beat Nioh2 as well. Played this game in beta and gave lots of feedback earlier. Presently going to be in rogue trader early access.

You talk a lot but you never back it up with in game proof, OBS is free, hosting on youtube is free. we are all waiting with baited breath to see your proof that you understand a single thing you are talking about.

Nor do you source any non darktide source that is popular among 40k fans to cite the numbers staying the way they are, or that the points i have made arent congruent with lore. The weapon tables in the TTRPG and the TTwargame are easily accessible and reflect the suggestions i have made for where they fit in balance wise and role wise.

you can love a game and a franchise and still seek to better it. My concern isn’t for me, i don’t need any “help” to beat the game my concern is for the falling like a rock concurrent players, because they go too fast and the servers get sunset.

The camera snaps whenever the chain attack catches. Chain axe light attacks rend and almost every attack can cause the camera to snap.

1 Like

You do realize that these vids, prove nothing. You can both be correct, how you read cleave targets and what @alsozara wrote about hitmass.
Groaners 0,75 hitmass and poxwalkers have 1 hitmass, thus you are hitting 6 targets.
That is also why with scab bruisers and gunners Evi with 5.01 (78%) Cleave Targets won’t hit more than 4 enemies.
Check if this helps with the tests:

1 Like

Hit mass stoppage has a tell i am not wrong, if the last poxwalker exeeded hit mass it would stop the weapon … it would also be the furthest to the left poxwalker or right depending on which way the weapon is swiping. Cleave and hitmass are not directly related. AS I DID SAY if you actually read what i wrote … hitmass CAN reduce your cleave targets if it stops your weapon … but there is a tell, and you can prove it by simply using the thunder hammer a time or 2 there is an amount of poxwalkers less than your cleave that can stop the thunder hammer when not powered. Which is the reason i suggest my solution instead of a “True Solution” if the thunder hammer cuts through when powered it will impact the elite every time you try to hit it with a powered up thunder hammer and hitmass stop not cleave stop.

Increasing its cleave while powered swinging is the “easiest” way to allow players to target elites like they want to without reanimating too much or completely changing weapon mechanics … its a single number adjustment. the weapon just continues its normal swing until it impacts a high hitmass target then it booms instead of booming on a 1 hitmass enemy. Its a fix they could implement temporarily in a hotfix and have the weapon fixed in one afternoon with hot cocao in thier pajamas. will it be 100% fixed no but it would go a long way to reducing player frustration with the weapon.

you are seing correlation and assuming causation. but the developers (very intelligently) put in a hitmass tell for when your weapon is being stopped by hitmass.

There is also more than one perk for the thunder hammer that decreases enemy hitmass, it will not exceed your cleave targets number even with -35 hitmass on enemies.

Dude I read what you wrote, so chill a bit or go outside, play with snow or something.
Still your “proof vids”, prove nothing.
You maybe right, I don’t see it, don’t have to be a douche about it.
The “tell” you see, for me is simply your weapon hitting twice (Evi Heavy) the same target . It does the same to flamers, grenadiers, etc., most maniacs & ogryns basically. All models “broader” than basic human.
As for the rest of your suggestions, these seem good ideas, I personally would not mind if the TH has an AoE just like the Mauls, but better against Carapace/Flak.

Think of cleave and hitmass as an AND gate.
when the game looks at a target it compares cleave to the number of targets its already hit if cleave is greater it can continue it then checks hitmass because if the cleave is too low theres no reason to check hitmass, if you cant pass the hitmass check your weapon stops its animation and goes straight down, rebounds, or digs in for a chain effect.

check out the “Crowd control” bar on the thunder hammer it points out the extra physics damage applied to cleave targets because physics damage is compared against hitmass separately.

This would mean my thunder hammer can cleave 10 targets if hitmass is in the calculation for cleave. it doesn’t work that way.

I’m not being stopped by hitmass here, but i am also not exceeding my cleave limit with leftover hitmass.

As I said you may be right, I just don’t see it in the vids.
It also does not explain why you can hit no more than 4 scab targets with 5 Cleave Evi. Either it is some Flak armor interaction, maybe Hitmass is additive in a given attack not only per enemy. Tests seem pretty inconclusive, due to weapons special properties/not attacks (like evi 2 attacks on bigger targets), blessings or other factors. Maybe the in-game values for high cleave weapons and their max hitmass are simply so close that it seems they are entwined.
We all can read descriptions (or most), it does not make it any more clear in game and FS is not known for sharing that info.
For the last time, you may be totally right, it is just that what you post is not showing it as final irrefutable truth. At least not for me and apparently not to other players.

Well my best guess is that the cleave of 4.7 is being multiplied by the default targets hit by the weapon (1) i don’t personally think cleave targets are In addition to 1 they are instead the multiplier times the (1) aka the total is the tooltip not the default + the tooltip.

im not even sure what math they would use to have hitmass be a calculation in the same number stream as cleave … it would be pretty arcane and difficult to balance.

i think Accums Razor fits this situation … it seems a lot simpler if the cleave and hitmass are separate calculations because you would save processes whenever you swing. If hitmass doesnt need to be claculated … don’t right ? makes the game run faster, makes the information much easier to digest for programmers and player. If they were integrating you would be calculating hitmass whenever you hit anything even if it didnt matter, if there isnt enough cleave in the tank why waste the processing on every enemy in front of you if you cant even cleave them…

You assume that cleave damage distribution is Hitmass ?

yeah im pretty sure it isnt transfering 8 damagedon’t think we would be getting any kills off collateral damage if that were the case.

About calculation, it may not be that difficult.
Cleave may be based on targets, but every target is simply counted as it’s hit mass or multiplier of hitmass+armor modifiers/your weapon modifiers.
At least that could explain the Scab situation. But your guess is as good as mine atm.

It also specifically says IN the tooltip it “increases weapons Stagger, Impact, and Cleave”
we can test objectively the “Cleave” isnt true because the weapon cannot exceed its cleave targets even on light enemies.

the other two are VERY obviously PHYSICS variables not DAMAGE variables. Is it possible that its adding to cleave ? yeah i guss but 8 seems like a lot to add to cleave for it not to gain a single target above its cleave targets. its mouch more likely especially since we know the general hitmasses of targets that its giving cleave physics damage not real damage, hence why enemies even if the weapon cleaves them lose physics reaction the more targets it passes through.

8/27 is drastically more impactful than 8/200-8/254

Might be, but I am not sure we can believe the FS descriptions as they are now, especailly that we do not know precisely what Power and Impact in this game stand for. Additionally TH is also having a first target modifier which impacts any tests. In Crowd Control stat they say it impacts cleave but it seems only it’s damage distribution part, which I have no idea how that is caclulated. As you noticed it is definitely not a target number.

Pretty sure impact is the comparison to see if they leave thier feet nd stumble, crumple, ect. and stagger is the number used to decide if they flinch when still on thier feet.

Likely by Accums razor and good programming… there would be no calculations for these items if the weapon doesn’t successfully cleave to a new target or if the target died they could just skip all those calculations on that interaction and play a death animation. Maybe they use it to also estimate the death animation type outside a few hilarious ragdoll bugs most enemies follow reasonably believable death motions.

I’ve been looking for some more information on Power and Impact, as few blessings refer to these terms specifically, there does not seem to be any concrete information, beside players speculation at this point (reddit, discord, this forum).
As you can see there are many uncertainties regarding the weapons stats and terminology.
In last couple of posts we also dabbled more in speculation than fact.
Based on this, it does not seem so surprising that there is some discussion/disagreement over Cleave and Hitmass stats and role.

What im seeing on attack hit in my head from a programming angle is:

damage - health >= 0 play death animation ; damage - health < 0 check impact
Impact - physics resistance > 0 ragdoll ; impact V physics <= 0 Check stagger
Stagger - stagger resist > 0 then stagger ; Stagger - stagger resist <= 0 then light stagger.
Cleave physics - hitmass > 0 check Cleave ; Cleave physics - hitmass <= 0 end attack.
Cleave - targets hit > = 1 Check damage(next target) ; Cleave - targets hit < 1 weapon stops dealing damage.

From a technical angle whenever a mob takes 100% of its remaining health the calculations are aborted saving processing power. and whenever cleave or hitmass gate the progress of the weapon it just ends the weapon transferance to an additional target.

Its probably the lowest resource way and the simplest to program way you could get the in game interactions we see.

That is fair, but we have no indication whatsoever that this is how FS did it, correct ?
Furthermore there may be more modifiers influencing that, like enemy resistances, types of attack (like in VT) slashing, piercing, blunt and other things on top of that.

yeah mine was a generalization … the rager would be an exception to the rule … either it has heavy stagger resist or ignores light stagger or something.

I was saying this is “most likely” how they would do it from a simplicity standpoint.
some of those are kinda testable.