If you switched to all Toughness curios, would you not be on Clearance 40 anymore?
Doesn’t really make a lot of sense to use that as a metric, does it.
And then
Are grey weapons the correct and viable choice in Havoc 40?
Both of which are questions. How on earth am I attempting to put any statement in your mouth by asking you questions? Can you please quote where exactly have I stated that I think you consider Health curios “correct”?
stop the dishonest gotcha attempts, bud.
I am asking questions meant to get you to explain your reasoning. It’s called the Socratic method. What’s dishonest about that? I literally can’t argue with you if you won’t explain your reasoning to me.
you’re asking things that if you had read what i’m actually saying you wouldn’t have to ask. i never at any point said that toughness is worse than hp curios, yet your question implies that this is my stance
You are changing setting or theme, everytime you got answer to your previous one. Such a weasel way to communicate, i just cant take you serious anymore.
point out one time i changed “setting or theme”. you are weaseling out of the conversation right now by no longer engaging with the argument, and in typical fashion you are projecting while you do it (you did this earlier too by trying to accuse others of namecalling after implying they’re stupid)
it was just a friendly suggestion bro and honestly you should learn english properly if you think “you are changing settings and themes” is an acceptable english sentence. i still dont know what you’re even trying to accuse me of because your english is so bad
good to know you have 0 arguments and have to just keep weaseling out of the conversation
How many languages do you know yourself? At what number you are allowed to insult other people language skills?
p.s. By “themes” i mean “topic”, thx for pointing that out. But you can probably use some of your superior langue skills and figure it out.
p.p.s. thats the last reply to this silly troll account anyway.
Some people exhibit what’s known as the ‘backfire effect’ when you ask them to explain their position. They realise they don’t know, so they get defensive and divert the conversation from the intended topic to trying to guilt you (e.g. ‘oh, sorry I’m not as smart as you, do you like making me feel stupid, etc.’).
Sounds familiar.
With that, I will no longer be replying to this discussion with you. Good-bye.
The thing is, Ogryn gets a lot of Toughness reduction talents. If you take those and then, let’s say, eat several hits in a row from a Poxwalker, having Toughness Curios allows you to take more hits than just Health Curios, even if you do not get any opportunities to replenish Toughness in between hits.
Because Toughness isn’t just a second healthbar. In melee, it is functionally damage reduction/armour.
That isn’t to say Health isn’t viable, you can even run three Stam curios and still do just fine. But Toughness is more than just a shield vs ranged attacks, it actually helps out quite a bit in melee, too!
So, after my time with almost 4k games within 3-years. This is my thoughts on that. Health Ogryn’s use this as their resource & planning around their Health till the next Health Station, Med-Stim, Med-Kit, etc. The thing is that as long as your Toughness isn’t low like 90 or 100 let’s say & at a reasonable level maybe 140-200 is perfectly fine. I’ve had 0 issues with this at all. So, Health to me makes you last longer in fights as a whole it protects you better from chip & a whole other variations of damage types. HP has gotten me out of more tricky situations than just pure Toughness alone. On average, I’ve saved more runs because of this fact in my personal experience. There are actually videos of ChocoB with HP Ogryn with 90 Toughness beating full Maelstrom’s solo. Now, obviously, I wouldn’t recommend doing this if your skill-level isn’t that high on the scale. My entire argument is that Health Ogryn’s are perfectly viable here & I’m going off of saying what he said in that it’s wrong to play this is completely non-sensical to my mind. I’ve known many Health Oggy’s play like this & do perfectly fine. Like I’ve said; because of the way Oggy’s skill tree mechanics works now, you can get away with playing HP, it’s the best of both worlds… It’s actually even better now because of this re-work. Why? Because you can sustain Toughness incredibly well even better now than before, so there’s really no argument to be made here on how it’s not feasible to play such a build. People have these personal preferences in their mind & that’s totally fine on what you want to play, but don’t tell me it’s wrong because it’s not somebody’s preferred playstyle, right? If it wasn’t for the sheer amount of Health resources in the game at your disposal than yes, I’d say pure Toughness all the way, I’m just taking advantage of the game’s peculiarities. I still play pure Toughness just not as much as the Health option. I cannot tell you how many times I’ve outlasted literally everybody. I want to hear an actual argument on why it’s not physically viable to play… Instead of just pure conjecture. You can nit-pick at stuff, sure, but is wrong to play or not feasible? The answer is no. I think some of my fellow Ogryn’s agreed above as well if you scroll up.
Your takes are valid for an Auric board, but guide is aimed at people who wanna constantly progress at the game (Maybe that is not clear from description, i give you that), without big changes in the behaviour patterns. By playing 3xHP you will get those for sure. For high Havoc missions you need 120+toughness or to play FNP.
If you want to judge my skill level, you can always go to my twitch channel, linked in the guide and look there for game highlights.
But i have completed some CIVI and VEG duos on ogryn before the rework if it means someting to you.
Solo talk: Playing solo is not my cup of tea, because it requires constant restarting and relying on a good rng. So i have no solo completions only because i dont invest any time in them and pubing havoc was super fun at the same time. There are only three things that can stop my ogryn(before the rework) from completing solo maelstrom:
Dogs, Netters, Stuck (During the dodge or in the horde). Beside those listed enemies, ogryn with “confident strike” was almost invincible and unkillable. On a weapon w/o “confident” it will be a bit harder if we stumble on a gunners seed.
After rework soloing is even easier and the nemesis list is still the same.
All of that leads to your argument: ChocoB completing Maels with 90 Toughness validates playing full HP ogryn. Yes, but only in Auric.
If we try to bring HP builds into High Havoc games before rework, we are faced with almost impossible to play enviroment w/o relying on your team with yellow Toughness and bubble/smite to survive and you was probably forced to always play Shield to counter gunners, meanwhile i can rush in with a pickaxe and Taunt on my toughness build and wreak havoc.
And if we are talking about Havoc 2.0 and potency of the Toughness builds, i have already completed few runs w/o any support abilities in High Havocs. 2 Zealots(w/o books)+ 2 Ogryns for example on Baross 38, which is close to impossible task for HP build.
You are almost on it with this quoted phrase. Every resource is very valuable in Havoc missions. If you skip Medicae by playing full Toughness, it means its free heal for somebody else in the team.
Same goes to medkit, if you slurp almost whole medkit by yourself, it means you are sabotaging your team resources and chances of successful mission completion.
And even you are speaking about comfortable Toughness amount. And according previous posts 88 Toughness for High havoc 2.0 mission is clearly not enough to count as comfortable.
Let’s sum it up:
Playing HP builds in Auric board is fine, but you have to adapt for playing differently when you decide to play Havoc missions. Switching from full HP to Toughness will put additional toll on you, when you will learn how to do chaotic Havoc missions. So new people should just master playing Toughness builds from the start and dont waste time on HP builds.
You are sabotaging your team resources by bringing full HP ogryn to High Havoc missions.
You are dependent on your team to provide for you, so you can perform (Bubble, Smite, Book, Shout), because you just want to play like that and dont want to adapt.
Yes, the guide isn’t clear at all with the particulars, so it’s open to interpretation. I just think saying such a statement about HP is weird. Knowing full-well a lot of people play like this. If you scroll up, I’ve pointed out many of the things you’re trying to make arguments against, I’ve addressed such as Med-kits, etc… (It’s a non-issue). With this playstyle obviously you don’t want to play greedy you have to know how to share, right? You’re not sabotaging your team if you have the experience & know how to play the game. As for the ChocoB solo’s this is just an over-exaggerated sample to prove my point. The average person isn’t obviously playing with 90 toughness unless you’re really good… Let’s be realistic here. @Index plays 100’s of games as a Health Ogryn in Havoc’s/Maelstrom’s without any issues just watch his videos. He doesn’t struggle much at all unless there’s team error. He’s a prime example of this working model & yet another exemplification. I’ve yet to read on how it’s necessarily “wrong” to play like this besides some nit-picking as I’ve stated above. Also, I want this point to be crystal clear… I’ve said it like 3-4 times now. Because of the way the new tree/blessings are designed now you’re not hurting for toughness replenishment on top of just being more tanky with that extra Health. You can be totally fine with 150+ toughness & do incredible as an HP Oggy in Havoc or elsewhere. I almost feel like you’re sort of ignoring my past posts & just repeating the same arguments. If you’re not fond of the playstyle so, be it, right? That’s fine… but don’t say it’s literally wrong to play. It’s just laughably ridiculous when proven otherwise with actual hard video evidence in your face. I’m just going to ignore what my own eyes tell me & 4k hours experience. Sounds legit lol.
Sometimes a lucky (critical?) hit from an enemy destroys my toughness in 1 hit.
But health is health and at higher difficulties there is no avoiding being hit at least some of the time. Also more health might give a couple extra precious seconds when trapped.
4, how about you? I still manage to express myself properly in english despite it being my third language. i’m not especially elitist about it but i literally could not understand you and that’s not my fault, it’s yours. it’s funny you’re trying to make it my fault.
now that you clarified that i keep “changing topics” maybe you could explain how? you said that hp curios are a wrong pick because with braced regen you can regen and i told you that this also works with hp curios. where did i change the topic?
you are not considering that some players are good enough to play with lower toughness and still not take much hp damage. in this case, it’s a tradeoff between taking chip damage even more rarely and being able to get into worse situations that would destroy a base hp player and have him on the floor
Actually yeah, that’s a solid point @Horticulture… There are players out there with high skills levels that don’t get downed turning games or don’t take unnecessary damage. That’s worth noting as well. If you’re put in a bad situation where your toughness is depleted the HP Ogryn will outlast the base HP Ogryn in those situations just because of the bigger HP pool to give you a fighting chance. I cannot tell you how many times I’ve outlasted literally everybody being a HP Oggy, it’s pretty wild. It’s saved me more times than I’d like to admit & I got to clutch & revive my team because of it.
I mean, on the other hand, a Toughness Oggy can regenerate so much Toughness he just never takes Health damage in the first place. Okay, not literally, but just take a look at this:
No blocking, no dodging, he literally just stands there and spams light attacks and barely takes any damage. You can tell he’s not running HP curios becaue his HP is at 300.
All I’m saying is, try Toughness Ogryn a chance, it can get pretty wild, especially after the update. I’ve flat out tanked Sniper shots with my Toughness on my Feel No Pain build!
and honestly you should learn english properly if you think “you are changing settings and themes” is an acceptable english sentence. i still dont know what you’re even trying to accuse me of because your english is so bad