Ever wondered which one of the two bonuses is more useful to you?
Now you can easily calculate the effect of both bonuses (as well as dmg resistances) on your survivability (not including toughness regen).
Simply input your hp, toughness and resistances as well as the dmg of an enemy attack.
The Ouch! Calculator will show you how much hp/toughness damage you take from each hit, and how much hp/toughness will be remaining.
Your goal should be to maximize your % hp remaining after being attacked.
You can download the calculator from the google doc below.
Damage values and toughness dmg multipliers for enemy attacks can be found in the reddit post by Grimalackt at the bottom.
Edit: corrected an error in the toughness damage calculation
Edit: health and toughness can no longer drop below 0
Edit: added an explanation regarding dmg resistance calculation
Edit: corrected the passive ogryn toughness dmg resistance to 36%
If my character recharges 5% toughness per second, then if I’ve stacked a load of toughness (let’s say an extra 60 nominal units) then I get 5%*(100+60 )toughness back per second, vs. 5% * 100 toughness otherwise.
So I see how this works on a spreadsheet, or standing there getting whacked one after the other, but I don’t see how it works when I’m regenerating a percentage of a value I can influence in the game.
And I say that not to be argumentative, but rather to say that I’ve always stacked toughness as % regen of that made sense to me. I get feats regenerating toughness, melee kills doing it, and curios. And when I get depleted, it recharges more numeric toughness faster.
Whereas health is an underlying stat that you only top up at a med terminal. Though it’s not instantly wiped by a special fire attack, it’s not a regenerative trait.
How does the above help make that decision?
Specifically this:
Does that calculator actually work when you’re regenerating toughness between hits?
Any kind of toughness regeneration is not and can not reasonably be included, since frequency of hits taken is not a fixed value (and neither is your toughness regen most of the time).
But you can manually include what ever toughness regen you think you have between taking hits.
Input your stuff in the pink fields as usual.
If you get hit once and then you regen some toughness, you can simply manually change your “t remaining” in the “after 1 hit” row to be what ever you want, so in this case, the value that it had, +8 extra (160 x 0.05).
All values in the “after 2 hits” row and below will then automatically be adjusted based on the manually placed toughness value in the “after 1 hit” row.
If you think you regen toughness after each hit you take, you simply increase each “t remaining” by what ever you think you regenerate. Do this row by row from top to bottom. It is important to do it this way, since the values in each row are calculated from the values in the row above (until you replace the formula with a number).
Constructive criticism: I think the dmg reduction bit needs to be expanded. I don’t think most folks know how to calculate it themselves or how everything applies to everything else. The ogryn’s DR for instance is in two parts: a toughness DR, and an overall DR. These actually overlap on toughness and stack there. And, of course, all DR in DT is multiplicative but multiplicative in the inverse case of “damage received” rather than “damage reduced”.
So stacking Unwavering Focus, two instances of 20% Damage Reduction (snipers), and being in range of a zealot with Benediction will result in a DR = 1 - ( 0.25 * 0.8 * 0.8 * 0.85) = 86.4%
And most folks probably don’t know that. I run into people all the time who say they are running 60% DR versus whatever (usually snipers or gunners which they even more mistakenly believe includes all shooters) and don’t believe me when I try to explain it.
@Jonboy As he says the math has trouble accounting for it as it just devolves into a meaningless snarl that makes my old steam curve diagrams seem neat and orderly very quickly.
The rule of thumb has always been thus:
If you kinda stink and are going down or blowing yourself up a lot, take +wounds.
If you tend to take a lot of damage all at once, take +health.
If you tend to take chip damage, take +toughness.
And if you are a Chad-for-the-Emperor who loves his zoomies and clutch revives in the middle of a horde, take +stamina.
Mostly depends on where most of your damage will be coming from in general. With all the shooters having pretty sizable multipliers to toughness damage, it depends on how you’re expecting yourself to be engaged most of the time. As a vet, you’ll more likely be taking ranged damage, and % increases to toughness give a bigger bonus, so it makes sense to get toughness over health (especially since you can get to a point where you can tank a sniper shot). As a zealot, you’ll more likely be engaging with melee, where you’re more likely to be taking health damage rather than toughness damage due to melee bypassing toughness past the first hit, and you get better health bonuses rather than toughness, so it makes sense to build more health on them. You could probably mix-n-match for ogryn and psyker, but prob prioritize toughness for psyk since they tend to be more ranged.
And then give it a month where this might all be moot.
Correct. That is why i did not say “take this bonus for this class”, but gave people the tool to calculate the benefit of health and toughness bonuses for themselves.
If you mostly take damage from hordes, you input a bunch of the horde enemy attacks and see what benefits you most.
If you mostly take damage from shooters, you input that instead.
Like you said it yourself, it depends on where most damage will be coming from.
If you personally mostly lose health by getting shot, sure.
But others might not.
Also, those who use unwavering focus, have increased toughness damage resistance while their ult is up. This is enough for some players to not get their toughness taken down by ranged units. For others, this can mean that an increased toughness value is even more useful, since the bonus is basically increased by the damage resistance.
Being able to tank a sniper shot requires a lot of investment and is very situational, since it requires you to have your ult active and sit at most of your toughness at the time of being hit. I tried it once, but dropped it, since i basically never get hit by a sniper anyway.
I agree with this.
Zealots have toughness damage immunity while sliding and should rush into shooters to get them into melee. A combination of both allows a skilled zealot to avoid most ranged damage.
And they can heal themselves with a feat, which makes health a renewable ressource and therefore even more valuable.
Again, it depends on where most of the damage will be coming from.
Depending on your setup, ogryn and psyker can restore toughness pretty quickly at what ever engagement distance you like.
Psykers can run a force sword with deflector, and they have multiple other tools that often allow them to not get shot by ranged units all that much.
Ogryn have a gigantic health pool, so they get a huge benefit from bonus health.
If the skilltrees include bonuses to health/toughness or resistances, you simply account for them in the appropriate boxes.
No Problem there.
Unless the health/toughness/dmg resist system is completely changed, the calculations will stay the same and the tool will work just fine.
I hoped that people would know what is meant, but i guess you are right.
I added a further explanation and an example.
My bad. i forgot about this goofiness. It seems like the toughness dmg resistance part should actually be around 36% (1-[0.8 x 0.8]).
I updated it in the tool.
As you can test out with the tool, this is not necessarily the case.
The reasoning here is, that “% hp remaining” includes all bonuses and resistances and is easy to compare.
Let#s say you expect to mostly take damage in situations, where you take 2 quick melee hits in a row, so you receive one instance of chip damage.
In that case, the combination of health and toughness bonuses/resistances, that leaves you with the most % of health left after 2 hits, is the one that will benefit you the most.
If you lose 5% of your health each time you get hit, you are pretty durable and it won’t matter if you have 1000 or 50 max hp.
Instead of having to compare your absolute health loss in relation to your absolute health, you only have to look at a single number: “% hp remaining”.
This is correct.
And this is reflected in the tool by the “% hp remaining” stat, since it will take more hits for the ogryn to lose 50% hp.
An Ogryn with 100 toughness and 500 max hp will lose ~4.2% max hp in chip damage, when taking 2 hits from a scab/dreg bruiser on damnation (attack deals 64 melee dmg).
A veteran with 200 toughness and 150 max hp will lose ~13.7% max hp.
By comparing these % numbers, you can easily tell that the ogryn is roughly 3x as tanky in this scenario.
Now when you look at your example scenario where they are both already sitting at half hp, you can easily tell that the ogryn goes down after taking 12 of these chip damage instances (50%/4.2% = 11.9), while the vet would go down after only 4 of them (50%/13.7% = 3.65).
@Flawless I love these kinds of thing; so thanks for sharing.
Question: on the 2nd hit… you actually take more total damage than the first hit?
50 toughness + 12.5 health (assuming F12 enemy health damage is 50 - I set that for ease of maths and left everything else at the default).
And then the third hit is 75 total damage; 25health and 50toughness.
So BASE toughness in essence we’re saying here is a health damage mitigator.
At 100% toughness the hit does no health damage (which is obvious I think to anyone who’s played the game). But then, at below 100%, there’s a % shielding effect on your health, the shielding scaling with total toughness?
What would be useful I think, if you can be bothered , is to demo a few example set ups that people might use using the tool, so it’s easy to prove one way or another? Guess I could actually if I get time.
e.g. I might run on a zealot
+1 wound, +21%health, +17%toughness (let’s ignore regen as you say)
but someone else might do
1 wound, +17% toughness, +17%toughness
or 3 * +21% health
or 3* +17% tough
Melee attacks deal full damage to your toughness (ofc considering resistances, and multipliers) in addition to health damage.
But your health damage taken is reduced by the % of remaining toughness at the time of taking the hit.
If you sit at 100% toughness and take a hit, health damage is reduced by 100%.
If you sit at 20% toughness and take a hit, then health damage is reduced by 20%.
Example: You have 150 toughness (no resistances) and the enemy attack deals 50 damage (no modifiers).
1st attack: You sit at 150/150=100% toughness, so health dmg is reduced by 100%.
Your take 50 toughness dmg and (100%-100%) x 50 = 0 health dmg. (50 combined)
2nd attack: You now sit at 100/150=66.6% toughness, so health dmg is reduced by 66.6%.
You take 50 toughness dmg and (100%-66.6%) x 50 = 16.7 health dmg. (66.7 combined)
3rd attack: You now sit at 50/150=33.3% toughness, so health dmg is reduced by 33.3%.
You take 50 toughness dmg and (100%-33.3%) x 50 = 33.3 health dmg. (93.3 combined)
4th attack: The first 3 hits have depleted your toughness, so health dmg is no longer reduced.
You can no longer take toughness dmg and you take full 50 health dmg. (50 dmg combined)
A zealot has 200 base hp, 100 base toughness and passive 7% toughness dmg resistance.
Wounds do not have an effect on how many hits you can take (unless you got downed before).
I will go with the example of Scab/Dreg bruisers on damnation (64 dmg per hit, 1x toughness dmg).
Bonuses: 21% health, 17% toughness:
after 1 hit: 100% hp and 39.13% toughness remain
after 2 hits: 86.55% hp and 0% toughness remain
after 3 hits: 60.1% hp remain
after 4 hits: 33.65% hp remain
death after 6 consecutive hits
Bonuses: 2x 17% =34% toughness:
after 1 hit: 100% hp and 55.58% toughness remain
after 2 hits: 85.79% hp and 11.16% toughness remain
after 3 hits: 57.36% hp and 0% toughness remain
after 4 hits: 25.36% hp remain
death after 5 consecutive hits
Bonuses: 3x 17% =51% toughness:
after 1 hit: 100% hp and 60.58% toughness remain
after 2 hits: 87.39% hp and 21.17% toughness remain
after 3 hits: 62.16% hp and 0% toughness remain
after 4 hits: 30.16% hp remain
death after 5 consecutive hits
Bonuses: 3x 21% =63% health:
after 1 hit: 100% hp and 40.48% toughness remain
after 2 hits: 88.32% hp and 0% toughness remain
after 3 hits: 68.68% hp remain
after 4 hits: 49.5% hp remain
death after 7 consecutive hits
With these examples, it does not matter if you take small chip damage, or a bunch of hits at once.
3x +21% health wins every single time.
This does not even consider that flamers and bombers instantly delete your toughness and that snipers effectively ignore it.
Aside from that, corruption (outside of being downed) afflicts an absolute number, not a percentage of your health. So having more health also helps with that.
Even if you go all in on health or toughness curios
Bonuses: 3x 21% +3x 5%=78% health (max):
after 1 hit: 100% hp and 40.48% toughness remain
after 2 hits: 89.3% hp and 0% toughness remain
after 3 hits: 71.32% hp remain
after 4 hits: 53.34% hp remain
death after 7 consecutive hits
Bonuses: 3x 17% + 3x 5% = 66% toughness (max):
after 1 hit: 100% hp and 64.14% toughness remain
after 2 hits: 88.53% hp and 28.29% toughness remain
after 3 hits: 65.58% hp and 0% toughness remain
after 4 hits: 33.58% hp remain
death after 6 consecutive hits
The first hit never deals health damage.
On the second consecutive hit (first time you take health damage), max hp already wins.
After 3 consecutive hits, toughness reaches 0 even if you max it out and at that point, more health is the only thing that matters.
Even with enemies that deal different amounts of damage, the more consecutive hits you take, the less important your max toughness becomes, so health just gets better with each consecutive hit.
Note: Outside of raw tankiness, increasing your toughness can have the benefit of being able to take more hits before toughness is broken (which cripples your movement for a moment).
And has a benefit in that any actions you taken that increase % toughness (passives, feats, kills) should in theory give you more numeric toughness back.
Infinite scenarios no doubt, but I’ll look at some as I bet when you start swinging you can take at least another hit.
Given the base values of each class thus far, I normally do the following seen below. It isn’t the “End All, Be All” guide, but it has saved me from being knocked down many of times because of these selections.
Still, that Excel sheet is pretty handy in truly min-maxing your way into Heresy or Damnation runs. Especially on Auric missions. ^u^
Veteran Sharpshooter = Max out Toughness
Why Toughess?
Veteran has the highest max toughness within the game
Veteran has many class feats that make toughness regen easier to manage
Paired with Weapon/Curio Blessings, toughness regen becomes vital to avoid taking health damage
Class toughness reduction from range attacks can reach up to +100% and +30% from ranged attacks.
Click here for Veteran Build Details
Maxing out all Curios for Toughnes
36% - 75% toughness increase
272 - 350 max toughness
Toughness Regen speed is good too if you need to fall back to your teammates for gaining toughness quickly
Talents choices
LVL 5 - Confirmed Kill
Meant for players who value high priority target killing over standard units
Can Stack Multiple Times without no limits
Only catch is that you’ll be hunting Elite enemies a lot to keep the Regen Over Time active
OR
LVL 5 - Exhilarating Take down
Can be used to be more aggressive play style within game with any enemy killed with weak point damage.
Limitation on only 3 stacks is good on its own but requires a lot of range attacks to get the most out of this talent.
30% Damage Reduction isn’t something to shy away from when being pared with “Unwavering Focus”
LVL 15 - Covering Fire (If another Veteran takes it as is in cohesion range)
If you pick this, the buff won’t be applied to you. Only to other players nearby.
Great way to not only earn more toughness back if it is lost but gains more damage as well
LVL 20 - Unwavering Focus
75% Toughness Damage Reduction from “range attacks” is too good not to take if you feel as if ranged units do the most damage to you.
LVL 30 - Sustained Fire
Great for when you need to quickly reload or gain toughness back that you recently lost.
Weapon Blessings for Toughness
Boltgun
Glory Hunter
Great for when a high concentration of Elites are grouped up
Adds on top of your LVL 5 Talent on how much Toughness you get back
Inspiring Barrage
A good perk if spam firing weaponry
Sadly not as reliable as Glory Hunter due to wasting ammo for toughness regen
Only a certain events/moments which makes this a great perk to have.
Reassuringly Accurate
Relies on Crit Chance which can be improved with the LVL 25 Talent, “Deadshot.”
Not as reliable as a perk compared to the other choices.
Zealot Preacher = Max Out Health
Why Health?
Zealot’s playstyle relies heavily on being within the thick of battle
Zealot’s toughness should act only as a shield for “1st enemy attacks” to keep the pressure on
The toughness usually breaks easily but be easily regained using “Chastise the Wicked” ability
Having 15% to 45% missing health triggers the “Martydom” passive ability that gives the Zealot +8% more melee damage per stack
Having more max health means an easier upkeep of this buff being active
Healing is rather “generous” at times with the amount of Medicae Stations and Medipacks located within each map
Not always the case, but good map knowledge is key on when to health
Click here for Zealot Build Details
Maxing out all Curios for Health
36% - 90% max health increase
272 - 380 max health
1 stack of Martydom
231 - 323 health
2 stacks of Martydom
190 - 266 health
3 stacks of Martydom
149 - 209 health
Talents choices
LVL 20 - Holy Revenant
Amazing if the amount of corruption that is applied to your max health is not applied or at a low amount.
Gives you free health the amount of high damage you do within a short time window
Ranged Recommendations: Bolter or Flamethrower
Melee Recommendations: One Charged Thunderhammer Attack and/or Heavy Attacks
Gives you a good window to recover the “Until Death” Passive Ability by having health restored to your character vs having only 1 HP left
LVL 20 - Faith Restores All
Decent talent if the amount of damage substained was at a high amount
“Until Death” Passive Ability and this talent can be a huge benefit if massive damage is done to the player within 5 seconds
Player is brought from 50% HP down to 1 HP
“Until Death” is triggered giving the player 5 seconds of invulnerabilty
Once “Until Death” is finished, “Faith Restores All” triggers to restore 25% of the damage taken within the 5 seconds.
Only used as a “Safety Net” if needed
Weapon Blessings for Health
Sadly, there is no weapon that helps with the regain of current HP values. ;c
Psyker Psykinetic = Max Out Health
Why Health?
Psyker’s are on par with the Veteran but are considered too squishy with just 150/100 on health/toughness
Toughness should be used as a “temporary shield” to avoid taking heavy damage.
Once all your toughness is gone, your max health determines how much real damage you take.
You can easily regain toughness by staying with the group or using Psyker abilities/talents.
Going for a higher value of health makes it easier to survive constant attacks from enemies.
Boss Attacks
Sniper shots
Crusher Attacks
Mauler Attacks
Rager Running Attacks
Being swarmed by melee mob
Being shot at by a firing squad of heretics
Being a dirty Psyker
Click here for Psyker Build Details
Maxing out all Curios for Health
36% - 90% max health increase
204 - 285 max health
Talents choices
Sadly, there is no class talents that helps with the regain of current HP values. ;c
Weapon Blessings for Health
Sadly, there is no weapon that helps with the regain of current HP values. ;c
Ogryn Skullbreaker = Max Out Health
Why Health?
Ogryns are strongest for a good reason
Starting at 300 Max HP, having more turns you into a walking tank
Toughness for the Ogryns are in constant flux when knee deep in battle
Sometimes it can be easily maintained and other times very difficult due to you being a huge target
Having more health while being shot at by ranged units improves survivability in difficult scenarios
Having +20% Health Damage Reduction is a god send for Ogryns
Ogryn loves their rations and Wheaties, so why not give them more of that?
Simple As
Click here for Ogryn Build Details
Talents choices
LVL 20 - Bloodthirst
If 6 enemies bleed around you, you get +60% Damage Resistance.
Allies who can apply bleed stacks become your friends with this talent.
LVL 20 - Hard As Nails
Great Talent to have if you are the one who constantly revives knocked down or incapacitated allies.
Just having one ally in either state gives you -20% Damage Taken that is within 20 m.
Good for clutch moments where one Ogryn needs to protec’ the lil’ uns
Weapon Blessings for Health
Sadly, there is no weapon that helps with the regain of current HP values. ;c
Never seen 150 hp vet who can handle auric without being knocked instantly or too much, most of them are going down right in the first horde encounter, cause 300 toughness was deleted with one fire tick, and then they rage quit. 150 hp is like 2 busters blow. Just max hp on every class and the only thing will be able to knock you in this game - dog and trapper.
So, I adjusted the spreadsheet above to add toughness back on between hits. A more realistic expectation.
It’s not so clear cut. If you’re assuming you’re taking out 3 enemies between hits (with melee) then the numbers do change.
At 200 toughness (Vet), you’re getting 3 * 5% * 200 = 30 toughness back between hits. At 302 toughness (200 + 3*17%*200) - which admittedly I’m not sure if the curios work additively as this was just spreadsheet maths - but anyway, at that toughness you’re getting 45 point toughness back between hits.
If you can keep that up, then you’ll last longer. Of course, that’s the trick. Needs chaff to kill.
On the zealot; you’ve got to work a lot harder. But then you’re built for melee with speed, feats, etc.
But basically the zealot has a much lower base toughness, so (let’s assume you’ve the +100% toughness on kill feat in slot 1) then you’re getting 10% * 151 toughness * 3 kills = 45 toughness back between hits. vs 30 if you stacked health.
It becomes a close run thing with toughness edging it, but again you’ve got to keep killing stuff.
At least… that’s how I calculated it. I might be wrong.
, is to demo a few example set ups that people might use using the tool, so it’s easy to prove one way or another? Guess I could actually if I get time.
