What are your thoughts?
Imo, the values that could be given to them are the next:
3-5% health damage reduction
5-7.5% toughness damage reduction
nah dmg reduction is a headache inducing balance nightmare
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there is +3…5 health and toughness already on perks. having dmg reduction as well would act as double counting.
i would prefer reduced sway or increased dodge distance, reduced wespon draw time, reload speed instead
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To be fair, all damage resistances in the game scale multiplicatively with each other (at least that i know of).
With multiplicative scaling, it is impossible to reach 100% dmg resistance (unless a single source has 100% by itself), and especially having a bunch of small damage resist bonuses, will not result in a large overall damage reduction.
Even if you have 3 curios with 20% sniper damage resistance, you do not get 20 + 20 + 20 = 60% sniper damage resistance, but 1 - [(1-0.2) x (1-0.2) x (1-0.2)) = 0.488 = 48.8%.
But still.
Having many sources for damage resistance (especially if they are not enemy specific) can be a pain to balance.
Also, since the damage reductions scale multiplicatively with each other, the actual value of each source of damage reduction does not increase as the player stacks more and more of them.
Because of that, there is usually no big difference between a curio granting “toughness/health damage resistance” and “more toughness/health” (although “more toughness/health” becomes slightly weaker the more toughness/health bonuses you already have, since these bonuses stack additively).
that’s part of the problem, multiplicative calculation is not intuitive for players, as you said each instance of dmg reduction is diminished in value, wich makes it almost impossible to intuitively know if it is worth taking over anything else.
and additive calculation gets out of hand real fast if you don’t limit Access to it.
giving players agency over dmg reduction stats also rarely results in build variety,
either you can stack enough of it to be mandatory or you can’t in wich case its obsolete,
i never encountered a game where dmg reduction provides a meaningful choice,
this is wrong, bonus health isn’t added multiplicative so you always get exactly that much more base value. so there is no math involved to gauge how worth the stat your investing is.
where you gain less and less value out of stacking dmgreduction.
To be fair, multiplicative scaling of damage resistances actually makes it easier for players to know which bonus is better, when choosing between options for a single slot at a time.
When damage resistances scale multiplicatively, equipping an item with 5% damage resistance makes you take 5% less damage than without it. It does not matter how many other damage resistance bonuses you already have.
When damage resistances scale additively, you have to consider all other bonuses that you already have.
If you have no other source of damage reduction, a 5% damage reduction is just that: 5%.
If you already have 90% damage reduction, an additional 5% damage reduction is effectively a 50% reduction of the damage that you would take without the additional 5%.
you find it easier to caculate multiplicatively on the fly? yeah no chance
additively
if I’d run 75% red on vet ult, and 2x20vs sniper i’d exeed 100% as long as the sniper shot at toughness much simpler
then quickmathing if he’d kill me
your are confused, that is not the case, your own math proves that already
the first 20% = 20% less dmg, the sencond already is less value than 20% and the third even less
thats why you don’t take 60% less dmg as you’d assume with x20%
if id run (20)5% reduction curios the 20th would even come close in value to the first, that’s the whole point
in an additive system you always know exactly how much less dmg you take,
insert any number for the 20
in (20)x5% and you’d know instanly
each is exactly 5% less dmg intake
not the case for multiplicative systems
how much less dmg dou you actually take in raw valuesdo you get out of the 17th curio? the 14th?
i’d need a calculator for that
5%
enemy atacks you for 73.4 raw dmg, you got 13 curios with 5%, 3 curios, with 4.5% and 4 curios with 3.7%, how much dmg do you take?
I think you misunderstood something.
I will make myself more clear.
So for your example
If you say “my current damage resistance is 0% and i will equip these 20 sources of 5% damage resistance each” then you are considering all of the bonuses that you (will) have and the resulting damage reduction when combining these 20 sources is very easy to calculate: 20 x 5% = 100%.
This is not as easy with multiplicatively scaling damage resistance. You are right about that.
With additive scaling:
If an attack deals 100 damage as base value, then each 5% damage resistance means a reduction of 5 points of damage.
As you say, each 5% is exactly 5% reduced damage intake, but this is only correct when looking at the absolute effect.
This changes when looking at the relative effect.
When you have 0% dmg res and add one source of 5% dmg res for an overall 5% dmg res, you will take 95% dmg instead of 100%.
That one source of 5% dmg res reduces your dmg taken by 5%. Very simple.
When you already have 5% dmg res and add an additional source of 5% dmg res for an overall 10% dmg res, you will take 90% dmg instead of 95%.
That second source of 5% dmg res reduces your dmg taken by 5.263%. Not so simple.
But when you have 90% dmg res and add one extra source of 5% dmg res for an overall 95% dmg res, you will take 5% damge instead of 10%.
That one extra source of 5% dmg res reduces your dmg taken by half (50%). Not so simple.
Back to your example:
Yes you would. So would i.
But you do not usually care about the raw dmg values (which are different for different attacks). You almost always care about the relative value (which is universal for all attacks).
How much dmg res in relative values do you get out of them (with additive scaling)?
The 17th actually decreases your damage taken by 25% compared to only having 16.
and the 14th decreases your damage taken by 14.286% compared to only having 13.
If you have to make the choice between
- curio with 20% extra health/toughness
- curio with 5% damage reduction
You have to consider all the other bonuses that you already have.
If you have stacked a lot of dmg red already, the 5% dmg red can be worth more than 20% extra health.
In this case, you can not simply evaluate the two effects based on their face value.
You will likely need a calculator for that.
Like i said:
When you take your example, but with multiplicative scaling, this becomes easier:
adding an extra curio with 5% dmg res, decreases your dmg taken by 5% compared to what it would be without that curio.
You add a 17th? 5% less dmg taken than with 16.
You add a 14th? 5% less dmg taken than with 13.
If you now have to make the choice between
- curio with 20% extra health/toughness
- curio with 5% damage reduction
It is a straight forward and intuitive decision, purely based on the face value of these effects.
It does not matter how much dmg resistance you have already. Equipping that 5% dmg res will result in you taking 5% less dmg than without it.
Like i said:
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i certainly only care about raw values, but you raise a fair point,
nonetheless i prefer flat values, or additive systems every time over multiplicative ones.
again, sure but i really don’t get the argument that its hard to imagine, that the difference between 17 or having 16 is either 15% or 20% dmg of the initial value coming through, the relative value is utterly meaningless in that sense,
each investement into that stat shaves off the same amount from the incoming dmg
so i always know if i want to invest into more of said statline
that is not the case for multiplicative systems
atack comes in for 100 points, you already got 90% dmg reduction, meaning 10 goes through, what yield you get out of more reduction is based on what you already have,
lets say you add 5% reduction you’d shave of 0.5 out of the 10dmg going through,
wich means you got a ratio of 90hp for the 90% reduction so 1 to 1 in value per %
but the second instance of reduction only spares you 0.5hp wich is a ratio of 1 to 10 in value per %
and this value changes based on whatever dmg reduction you already have wich makes it incredibly un-intuitiv in my view
I do not think so (maybe i misunderstand what exactly you mean by “raw values”).
If you only cared about raw values, going from 0% to 5% dmg res (100% vs 95% dmg taken) would be of equal value to you, as going from 95% to 100% dmg res (5% vs 0% dmg taken).
The gain of raw value is identical for the two cases. In both cases, an additional 5% of the incoming damage is absorbed.
The gain of relative value is massively different though. In one case, adding 5% dmg res results in you taking 5% less damage, but in the other case you take 100% less damage and become completely invincible.
i can’t express what i mean exactly but i try with another example
setup:
- 100 dmg incoming
you got 90% reduction
10 health dmg taken
after adding 5% dmg reduction, you’d take 9.5 dmg right.
so, the value you get for each point of % isn’t scaling consistently at all,
for the 90% the value is 1hp per 1% spared
for the 5% its 0.1hp per 1%
and the value is different for depending on the %numbers you use primary, secondary, and gets incredibly minuscule the further you go.
so in that example that 5% spares you 0.5 hp on each (100dmg example) hit, in raw numbers, wich means after 10 hits recieved you’d have taken 5 less dmg and you’d still be better off taking even 10 flat hp bonus
where in an additive system you always know exactly, 5% will spare you 5hp no matter in wich place it is
ie just having 5% = 5hp spared
having 20% and then 5% another 5% is always :: 20 less hp + 5 less hp + 5 less hp
having 5% 14% 3% 5% 5% is always :: 5 + 14 + 3 + 5 + 5 less hp taken
so the fact that in a multiplicative system, the values have diminishing returns based around what values you already have is not intuitive to me
tbh, im not really fancy having enormous amounts of hp as it would take way more time and resources to fill each bar separately instead of being all by reductions and ehp (effective hit points)
these bonuses are mostly weapon blessings, however, i agree that curios could POSSIBLY grant increased reloading speed
This is something I really agree. Having multiplicative dr sources is a really headache has a lot of bonuses will have had their values diminished really badly to the point of being redundant. This, however, isn’t the case with attack bonuses, as they would greatly benefit from the multiplicative formula.
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