Please revert Empire Longbow changes

[doom_hamster]

I noticed 2 changes with 1.2.0.3(or .4) patch:

1. The zooming is instant when you charge a shot. Prior to patch, it appeared a little after you reach fully charged damage.
2. Shooting on the move with charged shots - was pretty accurate before, now you have an accuracy penalty for moving and shooting.

The skillful play with Empire longbow have much to do with using charged shots aiming at the heads. Charged shots have good rate of fire, with solid aim you can go and clear 2-3 stormvermins in a couple of seconds. But the first change - instant zooming - makes the shooting simply nauseous, i fire with the same, high rate of fire, and the camera goes back and forth, back and forth, with strongest zoom possible (like on handgun).

It’s not only nauseous, but it compromises your aim - lets say you have a fast moving SV you want to headshot, he runs from side to side on your screen and is close at 5m away, prior to patch, you charge the arrow and follow the SV’s head trajectory with your mouse - both at the same time, and if you are good you hit it and fast. WIth the patch, you follow SV’s head, knock the arrow and the zoom kicks in right when you’re making aim adjustments (or following the target), it just screws your aim for no good reason, possibly delaying your shot. The previous system was so much more effective. Now you’re basically wait for the zoom to occur, only then make aim adjustments, which usually takes long enough to get into full charge state, meaning you basically use a handgun, and the fast charged style unique to longbow - is dead.

Also, if i had to choose between no zoom at all, and this new constant zoom, i’d choose no zoom hands down, because it’s more awareness, because with constant zoom shooting close-to-mid targets is awkward especially if you need precision. The enemy movements are seen as much faster with huge zoom on, and you have to move your mouse a lot more when shooting at a SV 1-5m away. Constant no zoom is more flexible, you can shoot targets at relevant distances (0 to about 15m) accurately in the head. The benefit of zoom is very little in practice, completely crushed by the drawbacks i mentioned. In practice you engage SV at close-to-mid ranges where you better be w/o zoom (to do headshots), for CW you use full charged headshots, and you also dont need zoom most of the time.

All in all this new zoom mechanic is a massive nerf imho, believe me because i gone through hell with huntsman and longbow (100 legend wins, lots of hardcore legend deeds where i was key DPSer).

And then there is a decent nerf to accuracy while moving (charged shots).
Man, the weapon just felt so good to use before, with a huuge skill ceiling - if you’re the master of aim, you don’t need the zoom most of the time, and you could run and “gun” like a bad@ss with railgun. The weapon also was more unique, now it became too similar to handgun - you’re forced to zoom, you’re penalized for firing on the move…

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TLDR:
The weapon was nerfed strong in manners that affect fun, it lost a lot of its identity/uniqueness, and have zoom mechanic that really only nerfes your ability to shoot at relevant distances, and makes your head spin.

The previous design of Empire longbow was great, it was one of the most fun ranged weapons in the game, possibly the most fun ranged of mine.

[azaroth75]

I would remove zoom to all the range weapons, and give as the special attack only for range base chars.
but I would also add a weight penalty to things like the 2 hand weapons (mostly the pole harm ). Developers should work a little bit in a garden with a pick to understand why holding the very end of a pole harm and wiggling it up/down left/right is only good for a bad backache.

[BlackBart]

I’ve not used Kruber’s LB since the update, so I’ll refrain from comments on its performance now, I will however point at the large number of “Kruber’s zoom sucks” comments posted before the DLC, most people seemed to feel that you had to game/time the mechanic to get an accurate shot out of it, and that it took far too long to initiate.

@azaroth75

Developers should work a little bit in a garden with a pick to understand why holding the very end of a pole harm and wiggling it up/down left/right is only good for a bad backache.

Not sure what you’re saying here… complaining about the realism of one weapon, in a fantasy game, where absolutely nothing makes much sense according to the physical laws we know and love…

[azaroth75]

I agree and disagree, there’s should be a starting point and some rules, or you’ll always have complains and lack of balance.

Back to the ranged weapons, in real life,

• cannot zoom
• crossbow/guns are extremely slow

In the rpg game the weapons are described in this way (listing only the ones similar to the V2 ones):
Melee
(name)(encumbrance)(group)(basic damage)(qualities)
damage is given by a 1d10 roll + the basic damage (sb stands for strength bonus, ex char with 35 strength -> SB = 3, 57 -> 5)

• Dagger; 10; Ordinary; SB–3; None
• Demilance (Cavalry Spear); 75; Cavalry; SB; Fast,Impact,Tiring
• Flail; 95; Flail; SB+1; Impact,Tiring
• Great Weapon; 200; Two-handed; SB; Impact, Slow
• Halberd; 175; Two-handed; SB; Special
• Hand Weapon (sword, hammer); 50; Ordinary; SB; None
• Morning Star; 60; Flail; SB; Impact, Tiring
• Rapier; 40; Fencing; SB–1;Fast
• Shield; 50; Ordinary; SB–2; Defensive,Special
• Spear; 50; Ordinary; SB; Fast

Missiles
(name)(enc)(group)(damage)(range [yard])(reload)(qualities)
range ex. 24/48 (short range/long range) within 24 no malus, between 24/48 malus, over 48 like impossible
reload ex:

• half means half round (in the game means, without particular abilities, being able to (in the same round) shoot and recharge/shoot and move/move and recharge and so on);
• full. 1 full round only for reloading

damage: the total damage value is given by a 1d10 roll plus the value in the damage column

• Bow; 80; Ordinary; 3; 24/48;Half;None
• Crossbow; 120; Ordinary; 4; 30/60; Full; None
• Crossbow Pistol; 25; Crossbow; 2; 8/16; Full; None
• Elfbow; 75; Longbow; 3; 36/72; Half; Armour Piercing
• Firearm; 30; Gunpowder; 4; 24/48; 2;Full Impact, Unreliable
• Longbow; 90; Longbow; 3; 30/60; Half; Armour Piercing
• Pistol; 25; Gunpowder; 4; 8/16; 2; Full Impact, Unreliable
• Repeater Crossbow; 150; Crossbow; 2; 16/32; Free; Special
• Repeater Firearm; 30; Engineer; 4; 24/48; Free; Experimental, Special
• Repeater Pistol; 25; Engineer; 4; 8/16; Free; Experimental, Special
• Shortbow; 75; Ordinary; 3; 16/32; Half; None

qualities

• impact, rolls damage dice twice and keep the best one
• tiring, can use impact only the 1st round
• experimental, can jam/explode
• fast, there’s a malus for evading/parrying those ones
• slow, easier to be avoided

group
It’s quite important, because in the rpg game you cannot use a weapon if you’re not proficient in it, so you need to “buy” the group proficiency using some xp points. Ordinary can be used by any one.

The encumbrance plays an important role, because over a certain limit, your skills are decreased

ps. I apologize, I put part of the rpg game weaponry table (not all the data) of both melee and ranged, even if the thread is only about long bow

[doom_hamster]

@BlackBart

I will however point at the large number of “Kruber’s zoom sucks” comments posted before the DLC, most people seemed to feel that you had to game/time the mechanic to get an accurate shot out of it, and that it took far too long to initiate.

whoever saying this was wrong, the accuracy was good anytime you release the charge (prior to 1.2 patches).

[Darth_Angeal]

@doom_hamster

whoever saying this was wrong, the accuracy was good anytime you release the charge (prior to 1.2 patches).

It was not, if you used the zoom.
If you charge RMB and shot before the zoom starts, all was fine. But the weapon got a lack of “long” - bow experience without it.
If you used the zoom and aimed for any enemies head, you could see how much the arrow drifts to any direction.
The longbow was more like a “swiftbow” with penetration pre 1.2… “Yey the enemy is 1m in front of me , let’s be like every other range class and fuuuu him with my range weapon.” Yeah range-meta…no matter what range…

Already the name forces it into mid/ high range and the faster and smoother zoom makes it more viable to kill SV before a BH appears or you’ve to stack breakpoints.
The weapon got an overall buff with it and if the enemy is so close , that the zoom feels like &#:^!^ , then you’ve got a melee weapon.

And before we’re to argue around the “skill-fact”, yes i was able to aim before and after 1.2…

[Haxorzist]

I generally think this is a buff and nerf at the same time.
It makes it easier to understand how this weapon works (no more release just before) and it is easier to use at high ranges.
The weapon was extremely strong in the hands of a good player and will be again once the players adjust to the new mechanic. So the nerf to fov (zoom) and the very realistic nerf to movement while shooting are a good thing in my opinion.
Note I’m not saying this weapon was op and it wasn’t exactly the place where I would have started to balance. (That would be handgun and crossbow instabodyshots on elites.)

Edit: Totally forgot that he is one of the offenders for elite bodyshots as well and deserves a clear nerf in dmg there.

[doom_hamster]

@Darth_Angeal

It was not, if you used the zoom.

ok i was wrong to say that. With 1.2 patch they increased accuracy when zoomed in. From 1.2 i was happy with the weapon. Then after a few weeks some minor patch 1.2.xx came out and made these 2 changes (instant zoom and more spread while moving). And now i can’t stand this weapon. Sucks for me i guess, because i liked it a lot.

@Darth_Angeal

But the weapon got a lack of “long” - bow experience without it.

And now it has it, becoming a copy of elf longbow and handgun, a shame because it was unique weapon with own feel, different playstyle and aiming. Why making weapons feel more the same? You want longbow with instazoom? Play elf.

@Darth_Angeal

The longbow was more like a “swiftbow” with penetration pre 1.2… “Yey the enemy is 1m in front of me , let’s be like every other range class and fuuuu him with my range weapon.” Yeah range-meta…no matter what range…

and it was fun, and it required skill and aim to both stay safe and kill things. This particular weapon wasn’t brain-dead ranged spammer, like BH xbow, it required more finesse and better aim, or else you won’t do much at any distance.

@Darth_Angeal

Already the name forces it into mid/ high range and the faster and smoother zoom makes it more viable to kill SV before a BH appears or you’ve to stack breakpoints.

Be it longbow or shortbow - they both dont have optical scopes, so their names dont force anything about zoom level. If you design a weapon purely for long range, then make drawbacks that are much less intrusive with your controls, and view.

Now its worse for me even at mid ranges to headshot SV, not only at close ranges, why - i described in OP, because with that high rate of fire it feels bad to go in and out of zoom every friggin time you do a shot. And the zoom level is too extreme, it’s like designed for only high (+30m) ranges, which makes 10-20% of total shooting in my experience. So new longbow can’t be used as effectively at close-mid ranges as before, which is a nerf.

@Darth_Angeal

The weapon got an overall buff with it and if the enemy is so close , that the zoom feels like &#:^!^ , then you’ve got a melee weapon.

for me the zoom feels like that at 0-10 meters, which where the majority of shooting happens, in this game. Typical scenario: a shielder holds off a lot of elites, i’m 5m behind him and have a bow, what now, i must run back 10 meters only to make aiming not ***t? If i have to fight in melee there, then there’s no point in ranged class, just take merc/knight with handgun to do literally the same amount of sniping (long range shooting), and be much better in melee.

[doom_hamster]

@Haxorzist

It makes it easier to understand how this weapon works (no more release just before) and it is easier to use at high ranges.

The weapon plainly became less versatile, its a massive nerf in my eyes.
“easier to use at high ranges” - only for unexperienced shooters, and now they’ll be bad a ton more at close-med ranges, than being better at high ranges.
The weapon itself didn’t needed the insta-zoom that bad, because all specials are effectively countered with bodyshots, elites - they tend to hang around close, you shoot at +30m ranges against an elite very, very rarely. And against static long range elites, with good aim you can hit just as good w/o the zoom. So i mean this buff isn’t a real one.

@Haxorzist

The weapon was extremely strong in the hands of a good player and will be again once the players adjust to the new mechanic.

It just, before the weapon was a tool, a solid tool built with very high potential to master it. When i ran levels with this weapon i felt excited to master aiming, any range, any difficulty of target, and when i got really good, it felt awesome - to be the master of close, med, and long ranges at once.

Now i feel the potential is halved, and the weapon is more samey with handgun and keri longbow.

@Haxorzist

So the nerf to fov (zoom) and the very realistic nerf to movement while shooting are a good thing in my opinion.

Note that with Keri’s longbow, in charged mode, if you release an arrow early (not holding too long), and move at the same time - you’ve got a very solid accuracy and running speed at once. Try that in the keep - run at the dummy from the gates, and do charged shots in the head.

Kruber’s bow now is noticeably more inaccurate on the run than this, which i can live with, unlike new zoom.

[Monkey]

This weapon was way too strong and easy ti use pre-nerf. You could literally play an entire map hardly ever swapping to melee whilst having mediocre aim.
Any nerf was well deserved.
I haven’t tried it yet with the new patch so I can’t judge it’s new performance.

[doom_hamster]

@Monkey

This weapon was way too strong and easy ti use pre-nerf. You could literally play an entire map hardly ever swapping to melee whilst having mediocre aim.

What you’re refering to is scrounger OP-ness, and what i’m talking about is that the current nerf is killing fun (and the weapon’s own style). I know the weapon is too strong, but there could be better ways to nerf it, for example nerfing damages, or rate of fire, or penetration vs hordes, anything but this forced tunnel vision.

[Monkey]

You’re right. Scrounger is the culprit for my view on it. I guess without ammo regen it might as well have been left alone.

[Darth_Angeal]

@doom_hamster

And now it has it, becoming a copy of elf longbow and handgun, a shame because it was unique weapon with own feel, different playstyle and aiming. Why making weapons feel more the same? You want longbow with instazoom? Play elf.

I understand your feelings about the change. I don´t like such things in other games too. My first impression of the “new” longbow was “omg… what is that”. I played a couple of games and my mind changed really fast.

If you asked me, the “elven-longbow” shouldn´t have any zoom. The WS got a button for it and the other 2 careers should even handle it.
The HS-longbow is still unique and better than the elf-longbow. You can penetrate /stagger CW easily, The zoom / attack speed feels smarter and you chop trough more enemies in a horde. (elf - 3, HS - 5/6 in my scrounger experience)

@doom_hamster

and it was fun, and it required skill and aim to both stay safe and kill things. This particular weapon wasn’t brain-dead ranged spammer, like BH xbow, it required more finesse and better aim, or else you won’t do much at any distance.

Yes it needed and it didn´t needed anything. I don´t know your playstyle, but i don´t use breakpoints. If you go for skaven, you were able to kill SV with 1 bodyshot, so i can´t see much skill there. But hey… i wrote enough about balancing all over the forum.

@doom_hamster

Be it longbow or shortbow - they both dont have optical scopes, so their names dont force anything about zoom level. If you design a weapon purely for long range, then make drawbacks that are much less intrusive with your controls, and view.

That´s more a design - issue in my eyes. I think the zoom is fine, just because it´s a game and a longbow should be for long range. What is the monitor-size compared to rl? 100m in rl - easy HS… 100m ingame - “is that a pixel or his head?”
So i think the zoom is needed and the swiftbow lacks hard on range /dmg next to it.

@doom_hamster

If i have to fight in melee there, then there’s no point in ranged class, just take merc/knight with handgun to do literally the same amount of sniping (long range shooting), and be much better in melee.

Again a design - issue… FS meant to bring “pure ranged classes” in a melee focused game. It´s a meta-abuse to kill everything from 1 - 100m with your range weapon, just because of umlimited ammunition, breakpoints or insane passiv´s.
The HS is made to take out SV´s / CW which are alone in the dark anywhere on the map. He is good at deleting specials and he is one of the best options to handle a patrol with his longbow.
Melee range should force you to take out your melee weapon and slay through everything. Yes Merc is definately better and FK just a lil bit (lack of crit/AS), but both of them lack hard on range. They can´t even abuse scrounger that good, the Handgun takes ages to reload etc.

I think it´s fine like it is right now and you should give it some more tries. Yes it is something “new” and humans are comfortable with the same things over and over again, but i´m pretty sure, if you handled the old longbow, you´ll master the new one too.

The rest lies on the overall game - balance - design.

[CommissarTyr]

https://streamable.com/18wh6 This is nauseating

This shouldn’t be a balance issue; weapons shouldn’t be balanced around things like zoom.

[hobobobulus]

My experience mirrors the OP. Having instant zoom on the elven longbow is fine, because it only has two fire modes: either fully charged or hipfire. However, since Huntsman has an additional fire mode of firing immediately after starting a charge, the current zoom becomes very disorienting, like your screen is pulsating rapidly. If they were going to keep the quick zoom in on Huntsman, then it needs to stay zoomed in between shots like the elven longbow does.

Additionally, whether or not anyone likes the current zoom aside, the accuracy penalty while aiming and moving is actually quite large, making these changes a nerf plain and simple. Crossbows and the elven longbow don’t have this penalty, or at least not in any noticeable way.

Overall, I’m still hoping that this change is a bug, because the class is dead to me otherwise.

[hanzy]

I kinda like both. I can live with either zoom type.
I can understand why some like it one way, others the other way.
Did several Legend QP last night with bow.
Had a great time murdering specials and elites.

Btw loving 1h mace and 1h sword on Hunts. Cant decide which I like better…leaning towards 1h mace with push block angle, attack speed, and parry.