‘its moronic because I moved the goalposts hehe’. Yes, that is true. I never didn’t say that wasn’t the point of me comparing the two at the start, but here you are attempting to qualify that statement otherwise. Joke poster confirmed, like here you still go. Me pointing out laughable easy accessible math at the start somehow disqualified my own argument, just stop. Go link some more in game graphics before I put you on ignore, if I don’t see a picture of a blessing or a weapon damage tab I’m done replying. Already beyond pointless.
“My view got challenged so now the other guy is a joke poster” -.-
That is legit the only energy I’m getting from those messages lmao
but go ahead, call me a clown too, surely that makes what you said before more reasonable 
He asks for the math and gets it, and somehow it changed my original statement? And then he proceeds to toss in comments about skill level, as if that is somehow going to make an auto pistol not do 800k more damage a game than a braced 8? Even shooting 1/2 the time?
I don’t even understand what the point of his original post was, if not to argue for the sake of arguing, because no one currently playing darktide uses auto pistol and goes ‘this is fine’.
I did not ask for anything.
You adding blaze away to the equation, is what changed your original statement, as i explained multiple times arleady.
I think it should be very easy to understand the difference between the two statements
“A causes this” and “A+B together cause this”.
My statement about skill level was directed at the bs claims by op.
My statement is reasonable, because if skill was not the deciding factor for what OP claims to have happened, you would see all of the autopistol users perform amazingly well, which they do not.
That was not part of my discussion with you, not directed at you, and happened before our discussion btw, so no idea why you mention that now.
???
Are you aware of the fact that 800k to 1200k is around the overall damage dealt by the entire group in damnation hi+stg missions?
I play all 4 classes, i mostly play damnation HI+STG and i am top damage in >95% of the matches i play. Usually by a long shot.
In the rare case that someone does outdamage me, it is pretty close.
I use the autopistol on my veteran quite regularly, yet somehow i have never come anywhere close to 800k dmg in a single mission.
When ever i play any class/loadout that does not use the autopistol, i still outperform basically all of the other players, even when they are using an auto pistol.
So although i perform better than >98% of the players i match with, i am somehow unable to get close to what you and OP claim to be normal stats for a regular player using the autopistol.
Aside from never having managed to deal that kind of damage myself, i have also never seen anyone else get anywhere near 800k dmg with any class, after the more than 1000 matches i played.
How can you and OP possibly make such claims, without feeling like complete clowns?
There are a lot of things that you do not seem to understand.
The simple fact that almost every single user of the autopistol does not perform above average seems to have gone past you.
The fact that most if not all of the statements made by op are completely made up, probably also went past you (unless for some reason, op’s region is filled with absolute pro gamers, all of which only use the autopistol, while none of the regular players ever use it).
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Pinning fire, like a lot of damage boost blessings, is too strong.
I don’t think that it should stack 5 times at +20%… it sound a little too high (this apply to bolter also).
However, must add that it makes this (shredder autopistol) somewhat useful.
I would hate that this weapon return to not being used.
Yes the math changed the statement completely. And you’re ignored, clearly you have literally no input on the game that could ever interest me with these takes. Bye bye.
Thank god ^this^ guy is gone now.
“clearly you guys don’t just blindly agree with me so I don’t care to hear what else you could possibly have to say”
Another addition to the clown-bag.
This is probably the shortest possible way to sum up what is wrong with the current balance of the game.
Blessings that increase damage should not exist period. Weapons should have an acceptable potential without needing +250% extra power, cleave, damage etc.
So why not just nerf / remove all the damage blessings and buff all the weapons accordingly?
Gacha system, that’s why. That and the fact that doing so would take an astronomical amount of time and work.
Blessings should be something like adhesive charges and deflector, things that change the playstyle of a weapon but not load it with 250% extra damage.
Anthing that either adds stats or doesn’t change playstyle should just not even exist.
But why do they exist? Because having 8 blessings in the entire game isn’t enough for the slotmachine and because it’s very easy to come up with both “filler BS” that you’re only expected to pull but not expected to use and “clear BIS damage increases” that your default, intentionally understated, weapon is required to have in order to be useable.
And just as I send this message, I see a video that is all about this topic:
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Tbh i do not have an issue with dmg blessings at all.
If there are more defensive blessing alternatives that make the weapon easier to use for lower skilled players for example, that is a reasonable tradeoff to me.
And if some weapons are more reliant on blessings than other weapons are, i also do not mind that.
My issue is, that we do not have a good crafting system that would properly support such things.
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I don’t mind having the damage blessings in as well. At least in the current balance of the game.
I say that they shouldn’t exist because they make for an easy BIS, must pick, inclusion to any build. Any weapon that doesn’t have the best damage blessings is instantly less viable than the ones that do have access to these blessings.
Why would anyone pick anything else? Increasing your damage is not interesting, it doesn’t change your playstyle. You do the exact same thing as you would otherwise but just more effectively and efficiently. Any game that has stat increases is balanced around them and not the other way around.
Wouldn’t it be more interesting to chose between several playstyle effecting options rather than “which of these makes me hit stuff even harder”?
In an interview on game design, reseach showed that efficiency boosters where the way to increase engagement. It’s no coincidence that those blessings exist now that we have a gacha system where they didn’t exist back in VT2 (with one exception). We only have 150+ blessings because over 75% of them are not ment to be desired / used. Then there are only a few that change your playstyle but have no damage implications and a bigger selection focuses on increasing your damage in several ways, with several cathegories of strength.
This tiny middle ground is where we (IMO) should be at. But simply balancing the numbers on both ends of the spectrum does not fix what the problem actually is.
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I agree with this…
however, the blessings that do not buff damages are not enough good for being a true competitors.
But, even with such move, I tend to think that the system have blessing that boost damages too much (BM, Pinning fire, Blaze away are such blessings). And also, the cleave system has to be adjusted.
However, back on shredder, in the actual system, where nothing is really balanced, the shredder autopistol is not the so OP weapon. There are alternatives that can deal same damage and fast, or even better DPS.
which is why I say they shouldn’t exist. There is no middle ground in making them competitors to other options. They are either so weak that they don’t do anything and are therefore no competition or are too powerful so that anything else is just not viable to run.
The 2 perks could be used to pick your “damage vs.” specialisations and blessings could be QoL / playstyle choices.
Which is what would have to happen if we got rid of damage blessings since the current weapons are designed around being boosted by such insane degrees.
Get rid of damage blessings, boost weapons by a degree that makes them viable. This is precicely why I preferred VT2s melee as I didn’t need 90% extra power to make my eapons viable, they were viable from the outset. Sure damage increases exist in VT2 but they are not always the best or only choice. Some defensive options are so good that I wouldn’t trade any reasonable amount of damage in for them.
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Part of the problem isn’t just that they’re damage blessings, but power blessings. That’s giving a pretty big boost to damage, cleave AND stagger. It’s definitely a design oversight or outright bad design to give power blessings higher numbers and more forgiving triggering conditions than specialised blessings that only buff one of those 3 attributes.
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Now that they are here, they cannot remove them… cause there will be surely people that have a weapon with them.
But they can make them somewhat useful, and also reduce the DPS increase that several blessing give…
I was talking about cleave for CA with BM, Bolter, Cleaver.
Obviously, not the shredder autopistol.
I want all blessing be a good option. I also want weapons balanced. Cleave system unbalance things a little too much. A bolter does insane damages cause it cleave through everything (or close to)
CA with BM is always the best option cause it has a little weakness with mutants and is good against everything and BM makes it cleave a lot. Cleaver is a monstrous that has a little weakness with carapace. PS when energized cleaves through everything with insane damages…
I believe that the fact that these weapons are so efficient is linked to the cleave system.
That’s true
However, about shredder, something that would impact pinning fire would make it a bad weapon. And that’s the main problem of autopistol.
Unsure if I’d call the pitiful damage that the cleaver does against carpace to be “a little weakness”, while giving the Shredder as pass becuase it does not do good damage against carapace but not doing the same in the process for cleaver weapons for Ogryns does not feel alright.
Ranged weapons are better at killing things, both faster and safer for the wielder. The thing that is supposed to balance this is that they take ammunition to function, but as long as you can keep a good pace you’ll always find more ammo, not even counting the refund you get for having/being a vet.
We have had this discussion plenty of times before, but the cleaver does good against soft targets and will do alot of damage IF it gets to mow down those targets with inpunity… but as soon as you go against harder targets, such as elites, I’d not recommend any Ogryn to just use the cleaver because it’ll take to long time.
I would say that cleaver is not the worst, but it is effective against anything except carapace. Few weapons are so effective with just one weakness (and here it is really a common weakness to several weapons).
About ammunition I would agree if… it was not unbalanced on this also. Revolver has less ammunitions than a bolter 
. Same for shotguns. Infantry autogun have a low ammo reserve…
There are weapons that are really not adapted to high int… all that could potentially run out of ammo in normal damnation if you don’t pay attention to ammos.
I’d say that the effectiveness with cleaver goes down against Reapers and Bulwarks, unless they are alone it would take to long to take them out with the cleaver. Against Ragers and Maulers, again if they are alone it’ll be fine, but as soon as you get a patrol of 5+ of them I’d strongly urge people not to just engage them into melee combat with the cleaver… now if they came not as a group, but spread out, and you had lesser enemies mixed in to gain slaugtherer stacks it would also work.
As for running out of ammunition, I don’t thing I have a better way to put it then this, the group is taking to long to move forward and using ammunition on things that does not require it, regardless of ranged weapon these have been what caused people to run out of bullets the few times I’ve seen it happen.
I don’t often agree with the things you say, but this is one thing I am on board with.
Damage blessings (as a concept) are okay, but when the %s assigned to those blessings are large, things get silly.
Let the weapons themselves be adequate on their own, tune blessings downwards and let the potency of blessings be determined by how difficult their activation requirements are. Shooting enemies in a horde shooter is a bit on the trivial side to warrant +100% damage, y’know? Meanwhile, things like 5% damage per elite kill (up to 5 stacks) exist 
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Sorry for the wall of text.
TLDR:
The issue is not, that some blessigns are strong.
With a good crafting system and good balance, strong blessings would simply mean that you get a high reward for playing the way you planned, when setting up your gear.
The issue is that the relative strength of the offensive blessings that are available to the same weapon can vary massively, and that the current crafting system does not allow players to freely choose which ones they want to use.
In many cases, the effect of a blessing is much more complex than what a simple stat boost to the weapon would accomplish.
Some ranged weapons have access to inspiring barrage. You get a bonus to toughness regen (still not sure how exactly it works) at the cost of a blessing slot that could otherwise be used for a damage blessing.
You lose a slot for a damage bonus, but gain survivability and can potentially fire at ranged units with a higher uptime, since you do not need to take cover as often. Depending on your playstyle, this blessing is probably a reasonable choice and worth the tradeoff (at least it used to be before it was changed recently).
The force swords have access to the deflector blessing, which allows to block projectiles. You could use the slot for a power blessing or bloodthirsty instead, but that leaves you vulnerable to ranged units.
This is a meaningful choice (when ever it actually is a choice and not determined by rng), because there is actually a tradeoff to using this defensive blessing.
The slaughterer blessing (power bonus on kill) grants weapons a strong bonus when fighting hordes. But the blessing does not really get stacked up, when exclusively fighting elites, and it basically does nothing, when fighting bosses. Once you stop killing, the bonus disappears quickly.
The Superiority blessing (bonus power on elite kill) on the other hand only triggers on elite kills, but has a longer duration. The bonus requires specific and tougher targets to be stacked up, but it also stays active for longer.
In theory, this would open up an interesting an meaningful choice for the player. However, the power bonus and duration of the superiority blessing are too small to make it a reasonable pick.
If it had a similar power bonus to the slaughterer blessing and had something like 10s duration, it would actually be a contender.
You would make a choice, based on what you plan to primarily attack with your weapon, and probably based on the difficulty you play on, since elites are more numerous in higher difficulties.
Blessings like decimator vs headtaker offer a similar choice.
Both of these blessings gain stacks on hit rather than kills, which makes them useful when fighting single targets.
Decimator has a larger power bonus, but is harder to keep up, as it requires you to constantly keep hitting enemies, while headtaker’s buff has a few seconds duration and allows you to stop attacking, push or block, without you losing the buff.
You can choose the weaker power bonus that is easier to keep up and allows you to push and block, or you can take the stronger bonus with lower uptime, that goes away if you perform certain defensive actions.
I think that having strong blessings is what makes player choices more impactful. If blessings only have a weak effect, there is no big difference as a result of your choice.
The problem i see with the current implementation is (aside from RNG), that there are a bunch of blessigns that are simply terrible, which makes other blessings basically the only reasonable choice to pick.
For the example of the force swords, there are 4 power blessings available, all of which COULD be turned into valid options:
- power on kill
- power on elite kill
- power on repeated weakspot hit
- power based on peril
They could all be viable choices if they were all strong and if they each came with upsides and downsides.
Power on kill (short duration) is great for clearing trash with some elites mixed in.
Power on elite kill would need a long duration to be useful. The duration has to be long enough so that the blessing can reasonably be stacked up and kept active for a decent amount of time.
Power on repeated weakspot hit, should probably come with a short duration that allows the player to miss a headshot once in a while. Although it would be easy to stack up on basically every type of enemy and should therefore have a weaker power bonus.
A power bonus based on peril should be slightly lower or maybe somewhere in the middle, strength wise, since the bonus can be kept up at all times, but requires peril management.
Some weapons can have massive bonuses on their blessings. Those weapons would then require you to do something specific in order to harness these bonuses.
Other weapons can be relatively strong by default and have weaker bonuses on their blessings, which means that those weapons are not affected that much by the choices a player makes, and are less reliant on the player doing specific things. Those weapons would also be closer to their max potential, when they are not upgraded, or the selection of the bonuses was not as well thought through.
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Which is fine, if there is some level of effort involved. Killing/hitting enemies in a horde shooter… that’s just playing the game. That’s not to say that those activities shouldn’t be rewarded, but I’d put them as the “low input, low output” end of the spectrum.
Weakspot hits, repeated hits, hitting a number of targets, there’s plenty of ways to reward players with buffs for leaning into specific playstyles/actions. If you can repeatedly hit a specific target/weakspot, then getting a decent buff seems fair.
These can even be mixed up a bit - Chaos Wastes introduced a bunch of “Do X so many times, get a buff” IIRC, so why not have similar options here - get a fixed number of consecutive weakspot hits, for a less potent buff (than the fully stacked Repeated Weakspot buff) but is easier to maintain.