Plasma ammunition mechanics are broken

Warhammer 40,000: Darktide Gameplay Feedback
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For short ; The plasma doesn’t work well with 2perks, survivialist and fully loaded (+25% ammo). Why ? because the 45 shots in the magazine, which represent 50% of the base weapon ammo, are not considered in the calculation of the 2 perks, making the weapon really bad in havoc in particular if ammo crates aren’t immediatly found for example.

I believe there is some problems with the plasma since a long time, and I’m not sure if many peoples are aware of it.
It’s not really a critic on the weapon being balanced or not in terms of damage, precision, DPS, but a remark made soley on how the weapon seems to be broken in terms of ammo count.

I will make some screenshots for clarity :slight_smile:
First the ammo retrieved with on the field :
You get back 1/6 of your total ammo EXCLUDING the ammo in the base magazine when you retrieve an ammo box. (10 bullets for a Zarona holding 60 ammo reserves with the perk giving +25% ammo, and 8 ammo without the perk)

You get 26 (= 8,66 basic shots) for the plasma gun, again with +25% perk, 21 '(=7 basic shot) without the perk.
I dont believe, but maybe that’s just me, that a shot of the zarona is worts that 1 shot of plasma gun (The zarona is a better precision weapon, got great mobility, and does greater damage per critical shot that a plasma, which it does often) but let’s say that’s ok, because of one thing.

7 shot isn’t 1/6 of the total ammo capacity of a plasma (with 80%/max ammo stat on it, that you probably shuld always have), it’s only approximately (less) than 1/6 of his MAGAZINE only. without perks, you got 135 (=45 shots) in the magazine, and in reserves, for a total of 90 basic shots (the Zarona only got 52 + 5, making it prenium ammunition in comparaison).

So not so bad hey ? The Plasma IS clearly good at ammo consumption and capacity overall right ?
Well I wish, but there is a problem,BUT NOT WITH THE BASE WEAPON.
But with how the perks of the vet work with it.

First survivialist.
If the gun work properly, you should get back 1% of 90 shots (2.7 ammo cout per elite/specialist kill) every 5 seconds maximum, right?
Well, no.
you get 1% of 45 shots (1.35 ammo cout per elite/specialist kill) with it…
Because it only take into account the ammunition IN RESERVES, not in the magazine, splitting the efficiency of the Aura by two… with THE ONLY EXCLUSIVE RANGED WEAPON OF THE VET

So you get back, less 0,5% of total ammo, less than HALF of a shot, potentially, every time you kill an elite/specialist, if you kill one every 5 seconds.

It’s already a bad deal for me, tbh, if not for my allies (and the oher two auras being meh), I would not take the best aura in the game since it doesn’t work on the one consuming the most ammo.

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Now with ammo reserves (the +25% ammo total perk), you realize, once again, that it’s only applying to your 45 shots in reserve, making go from 45 shots to 55~~ shots (135 to167) or to 90 shots total to ~100 shots, which is on paper, not much more than 10%.
But at least, it did up your ammo recovery with it too, which is the true reason you take that talent.
In this case, you recuperate 1.67 ammo er survivialist kill, so a tiny bit more than half a shot, which is still atrocious.
in comparaison, a weapon with a generous ammo reserve like the the Shotgun aggripinaa (the accurate one) goes up to 100 + 13 ammo to 125 + 13 ammo, and does sometimes (25% of the tilme) retrieve 2 shots per use of survivialist and retrieve 19 shots by ammo box, against 8.66 of the plasma.

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the problem is, with other weapons, survivialist and fully loaded works correctly with them because the magazines aren’t HALF of the total ammo ! so you really get what you should get !

In havoc in particular, not being able to rely on survivialist is a problem in my opinion, when you retrieve like 3+ shot per ammo box… for a weapon that’ is not that precise at 20 meters+, it can become a problem.
If you don’t find the ammo crate, you could be unable to do anything for a large amount of time, even if you take every little bit of ammo in the map if the spawn aren’t generous.

So I humbly ask : Include the 45 shots in the base magazine into the count of the ammo retrieved by survivialist and fix ammo reserves the same way for this weapon, (give it 25% and not 10%) at least.
If you want the weapon to be great, you also do that for the base ammo retrieval by ammo box and pouches, but it’s far less necessary fr me than the previous point.

Thanks for reading.

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I read the post, I promise, and I don’t say this to be condescending or anything of the sort

But NO ONE, and I mean actually no one, wants plasma buffed in any way (even if you’d call this a fix)

Edit: Having other weapons benefit more out of Survivalist and Fully loaded is a good thing, gives space to weapons like Combat Shotgun to take it’s place in a more healthy way

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I mean, everthing is subjective, since I know many peoples that don’t touch the weapon because it’s largely overshadowed by :

  • The agripinaa shotgun, which is very, very good as is.
  • the bolter, in so many metrics as long as you got reload and drawing speed
  • The helbore if you look at ammo counsumption and damage per shot, although it’s a pretty bad weapon at quick shots.
  • the zarona and recon lasgun in some specific builds

So, I can confidently say that I appreciate your opinion, but I do think the ammo retrieval of the gun is not something that make the game better, since it’s not the best weapon of the game anymore, by far.

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That’s not exactly true

Plasma is still the best option for Vet in Havoc tho, assuming you’re going for standard meta build

It 2 shots reapers, 1 shot gunners and every special other than dog and mutie (all of this in H40) without the need to scope, charge or wait, just left click them on the head with the increased projectile size

You can’t really get much more value out of a ranged weapon

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well, it’s still pretty good, I won’t deny it, but playing it often these days, I can assure you, the aggripinaa is far better at it for exemple against everything you just said, and doesn’t suffer as much in terms of ammo than the plasma gun, since you don’t shoot as much crushers anyway in havoc.

But hey, I say it again, I respect your opinion, and I won’t be able ton convince you that I did test all of that before, or even used every of these weapons for dozens of hours to give that opinion.

The plasma is good, yes.
The best ? Unlikely, between the time between two shots, the precison for headshot pâst 20 meters, the fact that your role, in havoc, with a ranged weapon, is to make specialists and gunners/reapers disappears, you’ll be far better with a bolter or shotgun.

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It’s a relatively elegant way to have weapons have different ammo returns and being affected by ammo related talents per weapon, but the issue is that it’s more an outlier rather than an overarching design decision to vary ammo return based on weapon power. You also have the stupid ammo system of las weapons.

Also, I found that the accuracy of the plasma is psychosomatic because of that horrible open reticule. Change it to anything else, even the dot, and you can nail a sniper standing on the opposite side of the train yard in Consignment Yard.

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I think I take the plasma as being unaccurate past a certain range as part of the design, so it don’t shock me as much anymore, but yeah, you will miss often and will probably not do headshot past a certain point, making the weapon not always as good as many people think it is.

Still, it’s pretty good if ammo isn’t a problem in the game you’re playing.

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For me, the bigger issue with the plasma gun is that it’s more a rail rifle than it is a plasma gun.

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Seems intentional to me. The gun is already extremely stupidly ammo efficient, it doesn’t need a change of this kind. It’s kind of ridiculous that it can hold 45 shots in one magazine in the first place. That’s enough to kill all the elites that spawn in a heresy mission I’d wager, maybe regular damnation.

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I mean, I get it, it’s strong on those difficulies but… Anything can be strong in damnation, even in auric, since = less ennemies and less sturdier ennemiesand for less longer missions with more ammo than in havoc 30+

For me, relatively speaking, it’s difficult to not make a decent weapon work in these difficulties, so sorry, I can’t say that I found that compelling. i wouldn’t even have made this post if havoc didn’t exist, since yeah, the weapon is strong enough to steamroll non-havoc games, like many others

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I was just putting the ridiculous ammo size into perspective, no need to get ahead of yourself there. If you think the wep needs a buff on H40 you’re mistaken too. It’s still the most ammo efficient vet wep there, outside of shocktrooper weps. It having slightly kneecapped ammo regain numbers does not change that one ammo box on a plasma achieves more than on another weapon, because the plasma is mechanically ammo efficient due to its extremely high damage and piercing per shot. You have to view these numbers in context, and not with math limited to one side of the equation.

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nope, you don’t achieve more with 8 shots of plasma than with 17 of bolter or 22 of shotgun. your’re glazing it a bit too much.

the only context the weapon is good is that cmpared to bolter or shotgun, you don’t reload as often, so you can invest in some build that are more difficult to deal with other weapons.

More damage per shot ? It depends the context, but a bolter that crit (and it crit often well builded) isn’t far or is better than a crit on the plasma in many cases. On a headshot, which the weapon is pretty good at, you are more efficient at almost everything, except shoting at close range without aiming.
You don’t save as much ammo as you think you are with this weapon compared to others, and it isn’t the more versatile either since your accuracy past 20 meters is meh without zoom.

In context, the weapon is good, butisn’t the best at the role the vet generally has in havoc. Nor does the damage of the plasma is that incredible when you have to shoot more than two gunners in 5 seconds.

Still, I’m only talking about ammo economy, the weapon is nice, the economy of ammo that come with it is a weakness, 90 shots in reserve is good, again, if you retrieve half as much than other weapons, it’s probably not worth it in the long run.

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I’d recommend you make this the focus point of your reasoning and provide math and actual gameplay comparisons, because I heavily disagree and so will most people.

The fly in the ointment to your reasoning is this:

Unless these elites are lined up. Then it can be 10-20 of them and it kills them in the same timeframe with the same amount of shots. This happens frequently, even on aurics, but especially on H40.

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I mean, it wasn’t my initial point to do a presentation that will, at best, be critisized by people, probably not accuratly I might add, for absolultely nothing in return.
And i don’t want to say ‘The plasma is worse than a shotgun or a bolter, here’s why” as a post.

The weapon has strenghts, and I don’t think that survivialist being nerfed with it is justified, that’s more or less all.

I did some maths for the subject, but knowing it is one thing, writting a two hours essay on it in aother is what I’m getting at. If you think it’s the best, I respect your opinion, because it certainly is for many people anyway, and I get why. I played it for years too.

And yes it works better when ennemy are lined up because the penetration of the weapon is as high as a shotgun that crit with a certain blessing, though the size of the projectile make it better at it probably.
But I will still hold that it’s good in damage, not god-tier like many seems to think.

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So if you acknowledge it works better when enemies are lined up, and acknowledge that elites on h40 are often lined up, then you’re probably going to have to acknowledge that one shot on the plasma has a lot more value.

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It’s the ridiculous cleave as well as the ability to pierce thin cover and walls that makes it keep its status as an elite and special deleter.

I do think the ammo/reserve design is silly since it’s such a big outlier and that the anti-ranged/ammo bias inherent in the both the havoc hidden and rotating modifiers affects it more than it should.

It’s the classic Fatshark habit of not tuning a single thing about it, but taking a sledgehammer to every kneecap they can find that supports the playstyle/habit/strategy that they are trying to curb, and they also conveniently forget the other things they have already done or how the changes would affect other things that they aren’t focusing on. So, the changes compound on each other and give it a significantly stronger effect than I hope they intended. But then they forget about it, and it languishes.

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… until there’s is a single bulwark or a crusher in the way. If you have clean line of gunners/shotgunners/ragers, many weapons are good in this situation, not just the plasma which is excellent in this specific configuration, but I don’t think this quality make it worth it, there’s stil limit to your cleave, especially in havoc

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oh yeah, 100%. I wouldn’t complain enough to make a post about ammo on the plasma if havoc didn’t nerf ammo box so hard on the map.

Rotten armour in particular make the plasma lose any form of versatility it had against armor, there’s also the one that just make random ennemies have 80% of damage resist aginst ranged attack, but this one is an easy one compared to other modifiers tbh.

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this was never the developer’s idea

plasma gun always had the big magazine, for the sake of having a big magazine, for better lore representation translated into the videogame

plasma gun ammo reserve never changed since back when scavenger would give you 2.5% ammo back with no cooldown and every gun were benefitting from it, (the ones with less than 100 reserve would be benefitting more but this was promptly fixed in one of the many nerfs)