I don’t really think any reasonable defense can be mounted for brutal momentum or pinning fire.
But as far as the bolter goes, I think it’s important that we keep apples and oranges separate. Keep in mind that the veteran class grants a lot of extra bonuses to ranged weapons (damage, ammo, etc). It makes a difference if what you’re seeing are the effects of the veteran as a class or the bolter as a weapon. A better question to ask is whether you think the bolter is OP on the zealot, and then go from there. Most of the time, veteran gameplay isn’t really admissible evidence that a weapon is OP. The class itself skews the results.
In any case, I’d like to see pinning fire fixed before considering nerfs to the bolter itself.
Please nerf Boltgun and Combat Axes, all of them. Please nerf Brutal Momentum and Pinning fire, and Blaze away and Deflector while you’re at it. Don’t forget to nerf Purgatus and ogryn cleavers. And for the love of god please nerf Brain Burst! Please, @Fatshark, please nerf everything that is still fun in this game so I can finally stop playing!
On a zealot it is same output.
I use it with an heavy sword.
I will say it once again, cause I think it can be lost by the debate here.
I think that:
Bolter need a nerf, but not on the damages. Perhaps a smaller ammo clip or/and less stability
Pinning fire is not the problem of Bolter. Cause if you test a white bolter, you get same result. This doesn’t mean that we don’t have to lower the bonus of pinning fire, but FS have to adjust it after making some changes on the bolter itself.
BM is not a game changer as several said. It helps against hordes, but it is not mandatory. My only fear is that FS don’t nerf it but kill it like they did for devastating strike. I am not against a change in the system behind BM, Death blow and devastating strike… but not if it is to make them totally useless like devastating strike is actually
CA is less powerful than the actual PS. Yes, it is, do the tests. A CA cannot wipe pack of enemies, a CA kill a crusher in 10 seconds like a PS with PC, a PS wipe faster an horde. So, if CA need to be nerfed, PS has to be nerfed again
CA has no weakness, excepted maybe maniacs. But, tbh the CA is enough efficient against maniac to kill them (even if dreg rager is a real threat with this weapon). Maybe making maniac a true weakness would be something good
if CA has a true weakness, PS should have one… maybe carapace could be a good weakness
Both MGXII and Agri IIX have higher DPS than a bolter. A bolter has a higher burst potential but the consistant damage is not very good. And it is ok. It is fine that bolter has great burst. It is fine that Agri IIX has great DPS. A bolter is not better at everything at once.
“I can kill a crusher with two Thunderhammer hits, but when I use a Heavy Sword I must swing to the head 10 or more times to kill a crusher, therefore Thunderhammers must be nerfed! Yes it clears hordes slower than a heavy sword, but eventually it will kill all the enemies, also it is extremely safe to use because of it’s overpowered stagger! Nerfs when?”
Absolutely…
An HS cannot kill a crusher…
but a bolter can kill fast a crusher, a bulwark, any special or elite, damage a lot a monstrosity, wipe hordes and all of this faster than any other weapon. Again, we talk about pinning fire. If people think that Bolter is too powerful, it is not cause of pinning fire. This is the gun itself that is so powerful.
There’s no need to nerf a blessing that is not the cause of the fact a bolter can wipe everything.
When I see highest damages (> 300k), it is or Ogryns or Veteran with bolter. So yes scoreboard is bad etc. But I never see a MG XII making a 300k damages dealt. I don’t see also a brauto doing such damages.
since this thread started I have paid attention to this. And I have seen several times Ogryns with 300k+ damage dealt, same for veteran with boltgun. I have not seen any vet with an MG XII making a 300k+ damage dealt. Maybe I only see bad MG XII players
Nota: this will be my last contribution to this topic… enough is said on this.
What can I say about this but: Skill Issue maybe?
If your Psyker isnt able to pull ahead in numbers, either someone randomly picked some feats up, or was staying with his hands out all map. (Iam playing Psyker for like four days now. I met far better people.)
This is a game with three vets that know what they are doing. The left ran a Machine Pistol, the third dude was me with a Bolter, and the fourth an XII.
Saying that the Bolter “overperforms” is just straight BS. It has a silly long reload you have to deal with, it rocks like a bike driving on a street with more potholes than concrete whenever you fire it without VF, it takes ages to pull out and use, and its ammo econ is terrible if you use it to unload into waves, or use it too much without aiming down sights in general.
The Machine Pistol and the XII are both a better pick right now. Can they delete Crushers? No. But they are easy to be pulled out, kill everything as quick, or even faster, have zero ammo issues even if you use them to unload into waves, and don’t have any issues to be used outside of VF. (The XII is just massive BS in general.) Both of these guns also have zero Issues staying in VF as long as there are enemies on the screen, even if there are other people/vets poaching your targets. Quite a big factor some people tend to forget about.
Even the Shotguns would outshine the Bolter, if their damn ammo count would get increased just by a bit. Sometimes I even encounter some mad lads with Braced Pinas that just destroy everything. (I got screenshots of those endscreens too somewhere since you tend to love to argue with those.)
Unfortunately this is how many people on this forum seem to think, and what’s worse, Fatshark plays into it. I mean balance in a PVE game, come on. Btw. you can one-shot a crusher on damnation now (Thnunder Hammer special attack + 3 stacks Thrust + Chastise The Wicked), now tell me that is not overpowered. Still I wouldn’t want Thunder Hammer to be nerfed, because on horde it feels like a big broom, that you just sweep trash around with. That plus terrible mobility.
Bolter is fine. It does the job on a veteran built around it (reload speed, instant reload with ult), with careful ammo management. On a Zealot there are many better choices.
I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again. The key factors for balancing a PvE Game should be:
Is this weapon so good that it prevents other players from having something to do (flamer being a key example)
Is it out of alignment with its intended lore/purpose
Is it fun
Buffs and Nerfs should be more or less based on those variables. This is why I am leery of touching BM Antax. It is self evidentally way out of line with lore place, and it certainly exceeds every other weapon in the game for versatility and damage output. But axe zealots don’t ruin my fun while they run around whacking this target or that target. Its not fast enough at killing everything that I never get to participate.
That being said if we wanted to address BM we could probably reduce its cleave damage cap so it can’t hit everything in the world in one swing for damage and just call it there. Though, personally, I feel like the weapon should be weakened lightly (CAUTIOUSLY, just a widdle) against ogryn and carapace so that power axes and chain axes have a place to shine without stepping on the toes of the thunder hammer.
Anyone who thinks bolter is OP has absolutely zero understanding of the game, it’s systems, or the many other weapons you can build to be far more useful, versatile and damaging than a bolter. The only thing one could claim with any semblance of truth is that the bolter performs very well with no skill. Absolutely anyone can magdump a Bolter if they have the space to do so, for reasonable results. For anyone who knows what they’re doing though, they will almost never magdump a bolter.
Now do it in mission.
With ping, shot ghosting, moving targets, enemies and teammates blocking your shots.
With perfect aim and none of these problems, the gun is great for sure.
But in practice, it is so much worse than in the meatgrinder, it is not even funny.
I get about 50% shot ghosting with that gun in missions.