Not really. It’s not even possible to check.
I do agree with you that toxicity snd elitism exist. In my experience (VT2) it’s mostly in the mid level difficulties. Since you can’t check loadouts I don’t see how it would be a bigger issue than it is currently.
Are you expecting mote major changes to “progression”? Also, if you can pick freely therw won’t be continuous dev time put into that version.
Also, not sure which group you’re referring to. Is it the pro-rng or anti-rng?
If you don’t see it, then you don’t see it. I’m not motivated enough to argue further, I think I have given a fine enough point.
Yep, I think more ways to optimize loot progression will come as well as 80%+ items in the future in one way or another. It was already mentioned by a Dev or a CM that 80% is the cap so there is some place left to grow in the future.
If we mean parallel implementation then there should be. If there isn’t with parallel implementation then I’m not supporting it.
I’m referring specifically to people who argued that after a certain amount of in-game time (100h was pretty agreed number, but some would be okay with more) there shouldn’t be any gear progression left.
I had a run-in with 3 people who are very-very active on the forum with this stance but don’t really play it and I feel like they overblow the issues the current system has (or act generally very negatively towards any number of issues the game have).
Chiming in siting a little over 400 hours and i would honestly cite just had badly progression is handled as my main problem with the game and just how badly the system is put together as the reason for not playing more. Every time i log in i want to go in with the intent of having fun but then it’s “oh right, this garbage”.
As far as the gameplay goes it’s really the standout reason to come back despite the disaster of a itemization system. Putting balancing problems with the ogryn aside a lot of stuff feels good to play (when you get the chance to actually use it) and the weapons feel fairly powerful and punchy even for smaller stuff like the auto pistol and las pistol. Moment to moment gameplay is great but there is no other way to describe the various systems around obtaining and upgrading items other than built wrong, built stupid if you will.
For starters locking all your equipment and resources to a single character was probably the biggest misstep they could have made. I don’t know why they thought this was a good idea but it’s resulted in an awkward progression loop where each new character has to start from scratch and has 0 outside help or assistance with gear.
As an added headache this is the crafting mats, malk coins, and credits i have across 4 different characters (because being real playing 1 character for even 50 hours gets really boring) which individually isn’t enough to really do anything of impact but if it was combined i could actually maybe upgrade a weapon or work on a character that needs, say, a proper curio or a new weapon. It’t not like i haven’t already, you know, sunk the time in, i did, the proof is there but because of some roundabout logic i need to do it again and pretend i didn’t just spend a bunch of time doing weeklies, get crafting materials, and collecting credits to MAYBE get an upgrade.
Taking even the extreme of a game like say Warframe progress is really slow at times and you need to farm various places to get resources and random drops but there is a guaranteed path forward for whatever you want to work towards. Progress isn’t often discarded (with various exceptions like sacrifice based systems but that’s an outlier and leads to more build variety) because you can entirely remod weapons whenever you feel like and short of running out of inventory space there is never really a reason to full discard something. I never feel like I wasting my time in a game like Warframe because no matter what im doing im making progressing forward. Previous progress in the form of weapons and Warframes unlocked leads to new progress, new builds, new things to explore.
That’s really the issue with Darktide, that’s the key word, MAYBE. The store is a random roll for type of item, quality, and blessings/perks. Brunts is a random roll on quality but requires you to play the slots. Malks is daily random roll and if you happened to already buy something you wanted then you are SOL for the week. Upgrading itself is heavily randomized and any step of the way you can (and will) ruin an item and need to scrap it.
There is already quite a few 370 plus weapons that rolled bad stats that ive had to scrap which was also after spending 100k or so at brunts. It’s not like there is a strip item of blessings option or unlocked perks / blessings, past a certain point you are just upgrading and trashing weapons at amazing speed trying to fin any progress. It’s lead to me going “yeah i guess ill just settle for this because i really don’t want to go through the time consuming process of getting the same weapon and trying to level it again just to get a more desirable blessing/stat combo.” The system does not reward or respect my time as some items have just randomly fallen into my lap which far outstrip even the ones upgraded from scratch.
On the flip side oh boy these would be fun / interesting for the preacher / vet to pick up and try even at a lower item score but guess what? This isn’t for the preacher / vet, this is on the psyker, who doesn’t have a single staff in sight. That’s the kicker too, it’s not like a shared stash exists, it’s not like even if i see something that would be good for my Vet which doesn’t have a ton of different weapons i can trade that, it’s stuck there. I think the only reason Psyker gets a malk shop is to farm blessings for other characters at this point.
Meanwhile i wouldn’t mind buying any of this to try but because i spent my malk bucks for the week I can’t and because i didn’t have the clarvoince to know “you will have useful items in malks on this character at this time” i don’t have the resources to get anything else!
The reason people are acting like this is a big issue is because other games already figured this out! It’s not like this is the first time a system like this has existed in a game, this has been a common system for literally over a decade at this point! Hell this is Fat Shark’s what, 3rd attempt at making a system like this?
We have gone BACKWARDS when it comes to both usability and respecting player time compared to Vermintide 2.
As a reminder Vermntide 2 had:
-A system that let you craft up whatever you wanted whenever you wanted at a fairly lax crafting cost
-Shared resources and items so you could swap out jewelry if you wanted to before spending time getting gear for each character individually
-Far less randomness in the system of getting items with good base stats (The power of that item will be between [-5 to +10] over/under the combined average of your current gear vs the system we have now where even a 370+ item count be terriable because it dump stats the wrong thing)
-Less random stats to deal with when upgrading / rerolling gear
-The ability to reroll those stats / blessings at any time with no locks.
I’m not even going to bring up red items as they MAY come down to line and it’s clear end game itemization just isn’t done yet (especially since blessings themselves are in a poor state) but i don’t feel like it’s an unreasonable ask for a system that is at least as good as the previous game’s system and not worse than it.
It fits with the RPG concept of characters. However, the fact is also that this does not fit well with so many other things, e.g. experimenting, the relatively low ceiling to levelling, crafting, lack of varied content. (Notice how I am not comparing it to VT2 here.)
I mean, even then there are plenty of other places to point to that also do this system right.
The gripe i have is that they had a better system in some ways and just decided to scrap the good parts of it for some reason.
I think it’s always pretty valid to point out when they had something right and took an entire step backwards and off cliff.
With how many changes they are making and how fast they are making them (adding brunts and crafting changes, adjusting what the minimum floor is, having to mess with crafting costs and crafting mat drops, etc) I REALLY need to question how much time was actually spent playing with the system. Not “oh i consoled in the weapon and resources followed by rolling it a few times to make sure it worked” but actually interacting with it between the morning star, gameplay, and the various menus in between for say like 100 or so hours.
That makes sense to me, however I think the big problem is that this is NOT an MMO. There’s not a large variety of missions and areas, there’s laughable variety/builds a single character can have, there’s not end game content like Raids to get good gear, there’s no daily missions etc. It seems like DT has somewhat of an identity crisis of what type of game it wants to be, more social than VT 2 but with less to back it up.
That is the point that I and the others are making.
Note that I don’t know how I would feel if it were a proper RPG or MMO.
Part of me wishes it were a more complete RPG game. A whole tree of skills to choose from, armor that isn’t just cosmetic, curios actually doing something interesting, items that can effect your whole build, not just the item itself, etc… again I assume it comes down to they were probably really ambitious in the first half of development, realized they couldn’t do it and scrapped all of it, and we’re looking at the scavenged remains.
Darktide is game that doesn’t know what it wants to be for it’s itemisation systems. RPG? PvE horde shooter? Looter shooters? Live service gaming? Free to play models? Like it just took a bunch of ideas from disparate systems in different gaming genres to try and make them stick. I don’t know if the designers are siloed and making decisions where the left hand doesn’t know what the right hand is doing kind of thing but it just don’t make sense to me.
If you’re going for a “tide based” game where skill and load outs are key and it’s about testing skill against hard difficulties, there needs to be A LOT less grind and RNG and the ability for players to try builds out more easily so the engagement is experimentation.
Or they want to lean into RNG and grind at which point they need a proper campaign, way more skills, even multiple active abilities, way more loot drop, more enemies, more maps, new game plus, more characters, etc.
They will never be able to do the second option even if we give them another 10 years of development time. The only way they can make these systems make sense and appealing, to appease veteran tide fans and more casual players is to go back to their roots with Vermintide 2, look to other horde based PvE games like remnant from the ashes, DRG, etc.
SSAAAMMMMEEEEEE
I was checking out one of the recent Remnant sequel community updates, and it touched a lot on character progression and, most importantly, their intent behind their designs.
I was thinking how refreshing it is to get something so detailed and community-focused from a dev, and it’s all stuff that doesn’t look like it’s going to make the game into a casino. Sounds like fun. And btw, this was in response to you saying you think the game could have more rpg elements, and this game has a lot of what you mentioned.
And remnant is deterministic loot. I like their new trait system where you pick what you want for customization vs being maxed in all ranks.
Quasi-deterministic. There’s a loot pool for some item drops, like from bosses, and a spawn pool depending on the seed, like unique merchants, but it’s not universally that way. A lot of items can be attained just by accomplishing a specific task(s), and there aren’t varying stats on everything, which is nice.
For sure. But most things you would get after maybe 3-6 runs at most. Then it’s just upgrading the loot. Most items you get pretty easily and reliably with high spawn rates.
There was only ever one trinket in the last DLC that made me use the save editor to view whether I rolled the 2 events in the same seed to get it. That was like 60 runs of the dlc world to get.
As a reminder, VT2 had a shitty system with no progression just a random generator for items without any meaning to it. VT2 would have been better without the crafting system because it was so utterly meaningless (after it passed to the point where you didn’t have to run Dif2 to get materials to roll your perks before that, it was just horrible).
I have a “bit” more time in the game than you with around 600 completed missions on 3 characters. On psyker I have around 137 games completed, most on damnation (80%+), and have every staff available with a few incredibly good bases or golds ready to go with some adjustments. Playing different characters and checking shop with psyker helped me collect these items, from the shop, from Melk, and some from the emperor’s gift, and for purgatus, I bought them from Brunt and upgraded them.
If your problem is that you can’t find “good” weapons then I just don’t share your experience at all apart from a few select rarer “high entry-level” weapons. If you say that getting maxed out BiS (or close to it) is your problem then yeah that will be rare, that’s the point.
If you find something so worthy to buy at Melk that you are willing to go below buying power then you have something very good and you should be happy, or you made a bad decision, simple as. Melk with the buffed item rarity is actually pretty good and it’s healthy to have a daily/weekly shop like this.
Maybe it’s just luck, but doing the double grim run on Hi-Damnation only gave me gold weapons with at least one t4 blessing, weapon attributes were pretty random tho.
Except it was weighted by what you found and what difficulty you played on. The range of item score was also a LOT lower. Agree to disagree on that one since even the oranges rolled up on average were fine and you had way more control getting exactly what you wanted. Once you got over the hurdle you could literally craft up whatever you wanted and all it took was more material. On top of that jewlery was less random and had set stats that could roll on them which is a far trek from Curio RNG Hell.
I mean good for you but as stated that really hasn’t been my experience. 4 characters to 30 and yeah i got some oranges but the whole point is im not even going after BIS because the itemization is just that bad. Even then finding even a “Good” weapon (whatever your definition of that is) is a challenge because even if i get one that doesn’t have the stat block from hell (yes I really want to take a weapon that has 10%-20% mmmm, very good). Even then there is literally no guarantee that it would just end up with bad blessings anyways or modifiers anyways. How many layers of bad RNG are you really going to excuse over some oddball view that it MAYBE helps player retention?
Again, read the complaint.
I already put the time into playing the characters and have the malk coins. I should not need a crystal ball to know that a good malk item will appear on which character. You don’t have a good excuse for siloing resources because there isn’t one. All you can do is defend another slot machine.
Again, do you own a crystal ball because i sure as hell don’t and i lost the desire to do this with even 2 different characters past even the 300 hour mark.
Congrats on being the outlier to the system i guess. Did a number of high Damnation runs and got nothing close.
All i read from this post is “I’m lucky and if anyone else has a problem with it then they just need to get lucky, any complaints about the system aren’t valid”
Well yeah its been firmly established that you’re not pressing consecrate the right way or have not burned enough plasteel to earn the right to complain or funny third thing. We know. Post your screen caps of your awesome weapons and shuffle back waiting for the next ‘items suck’ post. Its not far away.
My point was that VT2 had a meaningless system after it was fixed. It’s nothing, just a useless time-waster roll simulator, with enough resources to do whatever. The game basically had around 0 progression after the fix gear-wise, and for a system like that it was super out of place.
Go on define it. That might give me a better understanding of where you are coming from. I’m pretty fine with 330-360 weapons with one key blessing/perk and they already perform wonderfully, double blessing combos aren’t super hard to come by too (apart from something like FS). (apart from the high-entry stuff I mentioned)
I like the progression, and as I already stated above I think the problems are overblown, coming from a place where people want no progression gear-wise after 1-3h hours. As you do it seems. The system still could be a bit better and def needs a lot of QoL.
I also think there are some other upsides to the gating that I’ve talked about on another thread, but I think this is beside the current discussion.
I think I was pretty clear that I want to silo of ordo, and plasteel lifted. To be honest I think Melk is a pretty good way of doing slot machines and the basic shop is a pretty bad example. It nudges you to play different characters, and that I think is a good thing, with player retention bonuses.
It’s fine that you don’t want to do weeklies (that is now completed in 8 games max and you usually can get 1,5k with 2-3 games) with other characters often, but then you should keep a few Melk bucks to pick up the chase blessings if you want them.
If your crystal ball was your way of saying that you don’t want to check the shop then use the app between games, it helps a lot. It takes like 1 min to check what’s available.
My sample size is small, but you say you did a number of high-int with double grim taking them both and got nothing? Base level hi-int gives at least t3 almost all the time (“that’s good category”), I was talking about the hardest stuff (double grim).
I might be the other super rare person who is just so damn lucky, but it’s so consistent for me I don’t believe so (also nobody on the forums questioned me about the attributes of gear I get in shop or melk when I brought up some stats).
That is the silliest, most hyperbolic strawman I’ve ever seen on this topic. How the hell did you parse something like “I still can’t get the thing I want in 400+ hours” which is one of the more repeated complaints of the itemisation as it is and mental gymnastics it into that line?
The rest of your justifications for a lack of player agency in itemisation, the layers of RNG, the siloing, the unreliability of time locked random shops and dismissing other player’s experiences sound just as out of touch as that remarkable feat of mental gymnastics.
Maybe you just play Ogryn, because Ogryn does have the best experience with Melk’s blessings since he can only get class items there, but for the other 3 classes it’s rubbish for any class weapons because of the torrent of shared weapons taking up the generation pool.
Saying “I’m lucky, you should be too,” is amazingly tone deaf when there are people slamming their heads against the RNG wall.
Maybe you just don’t believe their experiences, but that is still no reason to be so dismissive about it to the point you are defending a mostly indefensible system, even unintentionally.
Think of it this way, if things improve, they improve for you too. If you’ve already got the stuff you wanted, what’s the harm of other people getting what they want too?
Maybe I’ve peered into the abyss for far too long and become a thread chaser too but after the balance changes all I’ve seen is
Even force sword complaints are more or less gone apart from chase blessings, and that’s like the worst of the bunch blessing wise with 13 or so different ones.
@zaygr I think it’s also a good reply to what you wrote, too to see where I’m coming from.
You tell me what you think the “good amount of hours” to be to unlock everything. It isn’t a strawman when everyone complaining comes to that conclusion (1-3h hours tops for all gear unlocks).
I think it isn’t “I’m lucky” I’m just not the one who goes only for top stuff for “experimentation”. I also pretty regularly add things that I would change and think are bad, like ordo, plasteel siloing, hourly reset being bad ect.
