Just like some ability nodes bubbles work, but more of them like that rather you go in a straight line.
Such situation with Shocktrooper you are describing can happen cause of tree structure:
in straight lines you can’t avoid some talents
there is no further continuation or more synergy talents
So niche specific talents shouldn’t be in the middle of your path, they should be at the dead end of skill tree or be a side nodes and have some further evolution. Either way yes, you will be doomed to respec them every time.
Let’s say i want to play vet with short range guns, i need something like breacher nodes blob (structure is dumb, but core idea is there)
For example las pistols are both las and pistols, you can take some las weapon universal talent and some pistol universal talent and it will work. Or you can take just one of them and spend your talent point for melee, survivability, etc.
That’s reasonable, and fair point about weapons which may span classifications - I guess they would depend entirely on whether or not the classifications were mutually exclusive (e.g Las, Solid Projectile, Plasma) or had some overlap e.g. Las, Pistol, Rifle
If the entry/exit nodes to progress through weapon-specific nodes were distinct, then I don’t have an issue e.g.
o
/ \
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Then there’s intentional choices to be made - if I take the left branch, I may not have enough points left over to grab something in the right branch (or vice versa). Likewise with clusters of talents that fit a particular group of weapons, the end results would be very very different between a shotgun build and a Las build.
If the talents compound on one another in different ways (like your example of Close Proximity and various short-ranged weapons), that’s cool too - you get to weave your own particular path through to match your playstyle.
Skullcrusher does not in actuality need to hit a staggered target. Infact it always applies to any hit. Just needs the target to be staggered to actually gain damage from the debuff, to my understanding
Not everyone uses the left keystone or the Mk I or II clubs for their Strikedowns. I mean, don’t get me wrong i see your point now, but thats not how i play or built my Ogryn, which gets us back to the point that it isn’t a general issue with Ogryn but an issue with that specific build.
Not everyone playing left branch doesn’t change the fact there are problems with melee.
And again, it’s not about specific build or weapon and not about performance overall.
You can’t have everything on one attack type - dmg, stagger, status effects like bleed, toughness farm it will be simlplistic and boring, even if it’s not op.
It also kills any kind of specialization and indentity, because everything is around heavy attacks, you build ogryn melee only around heavies, not around different weapons.
I posted above how i see character building in a perfect situation
i can choose a playstyle i want, not only melee/range or dmg/support, but on a deeper level - anti armor or anti maniacs or something else
then i can pick weapons will help me in that playstyle and take some weapon type specific talents
then i want to find synergies with this weapon - bleed, rend, etc, that will help me even more
more interesting “if-then” conditions to proc special effects
Just as you have talent nodes blob for ultimate ability, i want to have such blobs for different things. Kinda like in PoE, but not so humongous obviously - 2 or 3 nodes for weapon type, or status effect.
Ogryn right branch is kinda like that already - there are talents for explosive weapons, for weapons you reload often, for braced. And you can mix those talents depending on gun you play with.
I will describe my impressions about ogryn’s melee combat
There’s almost no difference what nodes from skullbreaker or bullgryn tree you pick,
as a result, you will get the same class with high damage resistance and low movement and attack speed with same style of play with only difference how will you get close to shooters - using bull rush or shield and will you knock back enemies or manipulate agro instead.
Having the same strengths and weaknesses within the same archetype is ok,
but the ways of getting these advantages should be more different between classes of the same archetype. For example, the skullbreaker’s and bullgryn’s high durability is achieved in the same way - through a high toughness damage reduction. Why not make skullbreaker more survivable also by increasing mobility (outside of his ability), which would make his gameplay more aggressive (and unique)?
For example, instead of “brutish momentum” there could be a talent that increases movement speed by 5% for each stack of Heavy hitter.
“Crunch!” can additionally reduce the movement speed penalty by 75% while charging heavy attacks. I think that the skullbreaker, as one of its distinctive features, can slow down less or even speed up while charging heavy attacks.
“No stopping me!” can grant immunity to stun and knockback from ranged weapons while charging heavy attacks, which will make it easier to fight with reapers and shotguns without a shield.
For variety, skullbreaker may gain the ability to use a second melee weapon instead of a ranged weapon. And if both melee weapons are equipped, it gives an additional bonus to movement and attack speed.
“Batter” and “delight in destruction” outshines any other sources of increasing damage and survivability from the skullbreaker and bullgryn trees. I think it makes sense to reduce their effectiveness a bit and buff other talents at lower points of the subtrees.
Pretty much. For me, there is only one ogyrn melee weapon, Krourk Mk VI Cleaver. Why? Becuase it’s heavy is left, right, left, right, forever.
With all heave toughness nodes, as long as I’m not in the center (need a back to a wall) I’ll never run out of toughness fighting the horde, the only other decent weapon is the club iiib and it’s SLOW. The cleaver lets you get around decently.
Then take inspiring barrage on a ripper, and you can be pretty sure you won’t go down under most circumstances and difficulties, some exceptions of course, but those are usually avoidable.
Still, left/right/left/right gets a little boring, and the slow club doesn’t even ragdoll enough to be fun. Maybe with some of the impact related blessings? I don’t take it enough to check since it’s SLOW.
Slow is a massive gimp which is why you see so many revolvers and laspistols, though a lot of people don’t seem to want to believe it.
