The key thing that has been lost, for me at least , is the feel of the combat. Belting things into the air with hammers was really FUN, and dodging around a horde slashing everything to pieces with daggers was also FUN.
Cheap hits and overbearing Specials that can’t be staggered out of firing their weapons (for example) is not fun. Hitting something with a couple of fireballs should at least stop it machine gunning your face into a smear of strawberry jam on the ground.
I miss the “comedy combat” Kerillian mentioned. Battering things up into the air, Chaos warriors halfway through their monologue getting a thorough battering into the floor, RV throwing bombs around like a loon. Slayer cannonballing into a patrol because that’s what he does. This has pretty much all gone because everything is tougher with higher HP. The slightly outrageous feeling of the violence of the combat is gone.
Im complaining here about many things, but not the least of which is the fact that they took a defensive ability (stagger) and made it a core damage ability complete with its own line of talents that make this game… less… fun
Also, they dont listen to the majority of their own customers. I dont get it.
Your reasons are different than mine, but I cant disagree. Who likes it when you cant stagger a flame rat?
About the whole ‘dodging around a horde slashing everything to pieces’ thing. Sure I guess its fun, but most pro players found that a little… easy. Mind numbingly so. I am one of them, but I see what you mean. It still has its ‘action’ value, where as now… its all like ‘Hold block! Cuz I think I saw a single slave rat around that corner!’
I see that the game gotten more difficult, but at the same time, introduced a mechanic (which is core to your damage potential) that… feels off. Yes, the difficulty is higher, and in some ways (ironically, like not being able to do a dodge dance as safely as you used to), is implemented in a positive direction imo
Though I feel different about the specifics, and a difficulty hike in legend wasnt a bad thing, I see what you mean. Its the action. The excitement. The difference between an ACTION rpg, and just… a rpg
On 1.6 I used to do solo legend deeds (where solo = with my bots). I had somewhere between 30-50% successrate and I was really enjoying it.
Now when I go legend QP, I have about 5-10% success rate. Not that I am not capable of going through but even if I work my ass off and get many clutch plays and stuff, people are just… not experienced enough to play this level. In most games there is at least 2 people who are not ready for this difficulty. I would say that legend QP is now harder than 1.6 legend deeds with 3 mutators…
If I try champion, it is quite the same - in most games at least 2 people are not ready for this difficulty. My feeling is that champion QP is now comparable to 1.6 legend deed with 1 easy mutator.
I did not try veteran difficulty but I did recruit and I cannot agree with what is stated in the first post. Before last patch I decided to farm level 35 on quick recruit runs alone with bots (I counted it should take me third the time to get to level 35 talents than trying and failing in legend and champion. I played around 100-120 recruit games and in every single one of them I had 3+ monsters and 50+ specials. I actually had to “try” to get through. I tought to myself - if I was a totally new player with level 1 characters I would not enjoy a single game with that much stuff thrown on my head.
I kinda got into the new mechanics and I can now do a lot for the team in every game (carry? ) and clutch in legend games. But as someone stated before, the great feeling of combat is not there anymore. If you are seeking hardcore challenge (which is imho minority people playing this game), the new changes are great. But for most of legend, casual and new people the latest changes just destroyed chances of being fun.
Interesting. I think the difficulty hike you experienced isnt far off mine. Different numbers, but I just generalized by knocking them up a notch. Legend is legend+, Champion is Legend etc…
And you are saying when you understood the new mechanics, you were able to raise your success rate in 2.0+ legend pubs to the point of carrying a team?
Also, you feel the game pacing has slowed to the point it isnt as fun?
Just making sure I understood
What do you think the reason for the change was? I mean, obviously practice for the mechanics familiarity, but what would you say killed the ‘fun factor’?
I read a post and experienced the same thing without noticing - when I used to play 1.6, it was relaxing. I had fun and even if we were not lucky and lost, it was still a learning experience with positive outcome. Today I am extremly stressed to a point where I have to talk myself into playing. I know I can just stop playing but after so many hours and good experience it is hard not to hope for better future.
The feeling. I used to love dancing around horde, dodging specials, sniping elites, soloing monsters. It felt just so f***ing good!! The changes in mechanics where aimed exactly against that and I cannot understand why they did that. Now you have to use a very strict and specific fighting moves that it doesnt have that nice feeling to it. It is not that carnal and flashy as it used to be.
The general stance of developers. Even tho many many players said that the changes are not good and nobody wanted them, the changes still got through and got installed into realm people enjoyed. Who and why made this decision? Why people who didnt buy WoM couldnt stay on 1.6 and keep enjoying it? I watched the review graph recently and it is the first time in Vermintide 1 and 2 history when this game got more negative reviews than positive (starting 7th august). One can only wonder why.
Last but not least - people currently playing usually dont give a f**k about others. The increase of green circle hunters, bad players trying to get carried in higher difficulty for better reward and toxic players in general just got at least 10x higher than on 1.6. Here I have no idea why this happened.
Was just watching my pre and post 2.0 solo legend videos, and other than beastmen and more specials I can’t tell a difference in the way I play or the speed at which I kill things. Actually, quite a few things take more hits to kill pre 2.0, especially CWs, and I’m under powered in the post 2.0 vid.
People complain about increased enemy health, but I wonder how much more damage we do with 50 more power. Not to mention bonus stagger damage or 695.5 power if you go with the +%7.
A lot of people don’t find easy mode V2 fun. If you want easy mode that is why they have so many difficulties to choose from. You will have to accept the appropriate reward chests for your skill though of course.
That is not my experience at all. If you play without any friends, just going QP, you find yourself carrying alone with 3 far worse players on any difficulty. At this point I have games were me (only or with second player) get 2-3x more damage and general accomplishment in the game than other 2-3 players. That is one of the reasons I have 5-10% success rate on legend and under 50% on champion. And playing veteran? I think anyone understands that for legend player going on veteran is not a real option…
It is really OK to give more harder options for ppl seeking challeng. But why making the game so hard for whole base?
Given that many enemies got less than 40% health increase, they should functionally be weaker than they were before. Chaos Warriors only went from 120 to 151.75, a 26%~ increase. They might be harder to stagger since the last update, but if you can stagger them you’ll be doing much higher damage - this will be even more of a stark difference if you’re using Enhanced Power, Mainstay, Bulwark, or Assassin (and, well, get a headshot or crit). The only ones who got a noticeable increase that should oustrip our damage bonuses are a few chaff enemies, who got like a 76% health increase.
Yeah, QP is a nightmare, but that is because you play as 4 solo players and not a coop team. Now that the game forces teamplay more I think people will slowly figure out how to work together over time and get better… Hopefully.
People figured it out months ago… On 1.6 going QP with 3 random players it was under really weird circumstances I didnt get a win. I think there I was around 99% success rate.
exactly. if you were good enough you could do stuff like this. and losing grims and tomes for that is punishment enough, but it was not enough for small percentage of people who cried for more challenge and here we are… you cannot do that anymore.
This is coming from a ‘hardcore’ player btw. I play this game WAY more than I should lol
You made a simple point (well, all of them really) that I believe to be 100% true on your 1st post…
…
^ a ‘pro’ wouldnt like that would he? He wants MORE difficulty. But in doing so, you alienate a newer player who LIKED the dodge dance and fast paced action. Totally agree. Its hard to find a medium, and I am speaking from another angle, but regardless… you are 100% correct
And with the changes, a game that made you want to play continually has suddenly lost some of its fun factor. I chalk it up to a ridiculous implementation of a defensive mechanic now turned rogue – gone on core offensive duty. You know what? Me too… and all relating to difficulty and fun factor it seems… hmm
I havent seen that, but heard about similar. And honestly… I dont wonder why – its 2.0, plain and simple. Could it have been implemented? Yes. Could they have implemented it in a way that made the game MORE fun and MORE difficult at the same time? Yes. Did they? No. Though honestly, having 2 working versions of the game to run separately might be a big ask, but that may have been possible too. I have no idea
And THIS ^ is a big one for me too. This game is a CO-OP game. NOT a solo ‘Look at me! See how GREAT I AM!?’ game. I call those ‘winners’ elitists. They believe they can carry, and you are incapable of playing. They believe they are better than you are and typically get themselves surrounded, alone, die and rage quit or come up with ego-centric reasons they died if they didnt. Circle hunters as you called them fall into the same category. They feel the same, but have a different reasoning. They arent SURE they are better than you, so they COMPETE. They rush ahead not because they believe they are better like the elitists, but because they want to do the damage FIRST and PROVE it. Because if the enemy is already dead, its a number you cant STEAL from them. Remember, this game ISNT a CO-OP game, its a COMPETITION. All inexperienced, egotistical fools. Trust me. LOTS of time in game playing with ppl like that. Their argument is like ‘You dont understand pacing - noob!’ - like from one earlier. My reply is always the same. “If you like to play alone, there is a modded realm you can have ALL THE FUN YOU WANT!”
And the last one, the ‘bad players’. Well, the first two go in that category too, as MANY times I have had to ‘carry’ their ass up from the dirt when the group caught up with them laying there on the floor… but yes, sometimes people playing higher difficulties dont just have a problem understanding positioning and teamwork as those do, but ALSO have no idea what a dodge is.
Oh and toxic is just toxic. Use vote kick like I do lol
Honestly out of those, Id take the inexperienced noob any day. They at least are WILLING to listen. Try telling a ‘hero’ that he should stay closer to his team. All you hear back is ‘I got this bro’ or ‘I know what Im doing’. Carrying a newer player is possible, because they stay close. Carrying an elitist means you will have to catch up to them just to pick them up. Fools lol
But I am rambling…
I hear you. And agree. The difficulty WILL be very negative to casual players (who DO make up the majority of the games customer base imo as well) and you WILL see a negative backlash in steam reviews etc. I have NO IDEA why Fatshark has done this
Some here think its ok, and balancing over time will be the answer. And maybe they are right, but my opinion is that this is one HELL of a jolt to the game, and coming from a more experienced player, makes the game ‘less fun’ for me too. Different reasons, as I dont mind the hike, although a little harsh (especially in legend/champ) and needs some major refinement, but the core damage model has changed. Completely. Its not V2 anymore. Its V2.5 or V3. A different game. Not to my taste either.
So Im glad you spoke for the more casual player (again, I believe the MAJORITY of players) and listed your experiences with the new patch. I REALLY hope the developers HEAR what you said and LISTEN CAREFULLY… or Vermintide 2 will find out that the 2.0 patch that was supposed to make them more money, will be the REASON they make LESS!
Rough point of view to have. But its what I think currently
If someone can solo the game like that so easily then do you really need teammates, and if you don’t need teammates then what kind of a coop game is that?
Then why even have different difficulties if not for this exact reason? People just can’t cheese the game anymore with infinite dodge dancing and realizing that they aren’t as good as they thought they were, and that’s OK. They just need to take the hit to the ego and drop a difficulty.
I started this game cooping with my friends. I “outgrew” them pretty fast so we dont play together much. I found new good teammates while playing legend. We had a lot of fun together and played every day. The faded out during time or went into WoM content only (which I dont rly want). So currently and maybe temporarily I am on my own. And I stated my QP experience alrady. I still liked to play solo with bots (why the hell not).
) and clutch in legend games. But as someone stated before, the great feeling of combat is not there anymore. If you are seeking hardcore challenge (which is imho minority people playing this game), the new changes are great. But for most of legend, casual and new people the latest changes just destroyed chances of being fun.