[NEW KEYSTONE IDEA] A new "Double melee" keystone for Zealot

Warhammer 40,000: Darktide General Discussion
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Hello, Forum! :waving_hand: Saw a post on Reddit today about Hivescum and how it ate Zealot’s hybrid melee/ranged playstyle identity. The OP suggested making a stim lab for melee weapons pairings and a keystone that lets you equip two melee weapons. I think that’s just too much to ask from the devs and feels redundant.

So I got inspired and came up with my own idea for a Zealot keystone that allows two melee weapons. It’s intended to replace Inexorable Judgment, as I(and probably many others) find that keystone lacking and somewhat redundant compared to the other two.

Keystone: Sacrificial Zeal

Effect: Lose the ability to equip ranged weapons. Gain the ability to equip two melee weapons. +50% weapon swap speed. +15% movement speed. +10% attack speed. +1 dodge count. X% increased dodge distance.

Upgrades:

  • The Master’s Retribution. Gain the ability to dodge out of disables. Dodging knocks back enemies. On use, gain –15% stamina usage and +25% Impact. Cooldown: 8 seconds.

  • Versatile Execution. Weakspot, Backstab or Critical kills grant 1 stack of Versatile Execution (Elites and Specialists grant 2 stacks). Max 8 stacks. Each stack grants: +4% damage, +1.5% critical chance, +2% attack speed. Buff duration: 12 seconds. Cooldown starts after swapping melee weapons. The buff is tracked separately for each weapon.

  • Bane of the Heretics – upgrade to Versatile Execution. Weakspot hits, successful dodges and perfect blocks on Monstrosities and Captains grant 1 stack of Versatile Execution. Versatile Execution also grants +2% increased damage to Monstrosities and Captains per stack.

  • Bane of the Heretics(Alternative idea) – upgrade to Versatile Execution. Successful dodges and perfect blocks against Ogryns, Monstrosities and Captains also grant 1 stack of Versatile Execution. Versatile Execution maximum stacks increased to 10.

  • Sacred Tool. While a weapon is inactive, gain 1 stack of Sacred Tool each second, up to a maximum of 16 stacks. Each stack grants: +3% damage, +1.5% increased Impact, +1.5% increased attack speed, +0.75% critical chance. Swapping to the inactive weapon starts the cooldown. Buff duration: 6 seconds.

  • Sacred Tool(Alternative idea). While a weapon is inactive, gain 1 stack of Sacred Tool each second, up to a maximum of 16 stacks. Each stack grants: +3% damage, +1.5% damage to Monstrosities and Captains, +1.5% increased attack speed, +0.75% critical chance. Swapping to the inactive weapon starts the cooldown. Buff duration: 6 seconds.

  • Sanctified Proximity – upgrade to Sacred Tool. If the active weapon does not have Sacred Tool active, it gains half of Sacred Tool’s current stacks as Sanctified Proximity buff.

  • Retributor’s stance. Moving and blocking grants 1 stack of Retributor’s stance up to 20. Each stack grants: +0,4% toughness regeneration per second and –0,4% stamina usage. Dodges and Perfect Blocks grant 3 stacks.

Sacred Tool and Versatile Execution are mutually exclusive and lock each other out!

Design Intent

The core idea is that by losing the ability to immediately eliminate elites and specials at range, the player gains a far more versatile and aggressive melee-focused playstyle. In exchange, it is reasonable to provide substantial stat buffs. In terms of raw power, this sits somewhere near Martyrdom(not as consistent and lacks ranged weapon) and Blazing Piety(not as consistent, not as big of a buff for crits and lacks ranged weapon), but focuses more on weapon swapping, dodging, blocking, and positioning – pure melee stuff.

The keystone intentionally does not provide cleave or rending. Instead, the dual-melee setup allows players to solve this: one weapon focused on horde clear, the other on elites or armored targets.

Master’s Retribution is currently a weak talent, but in a talent tree that completely removes ranged weapons, it fits naturally as a clutch tool. It gives the Zealot at least one recovery option when things go wrong.

Versatile Execution is meant to reward actively mixing weapons rather than defaulting to a single all-purpose option. Instead of using a dueling sword for everything and swapping to a hammer only for boss breakpoints, the player is encouraged to rotate weapons frequently.

Sacred Tool exists as an alternative approach, emphasizing rare and deliberate weapon swaps. Sacred Tool and Versatile Execution are mutually exclusive and lock each other out.

The numbers used are examples. The keystone would need to grant a substantial power increase to compensate for losing a ranged weapon, especially given the threat posed by specialists and gunners. A setup with one ranged and one melee weapon is generally preferable, so the payoff must justify the risk.

The goal is to add something genuinely unique. Inexorable Judgment is comfortable, but neither particularly interesting nor clearly on par with the other keystones. Hybrid ranged playstyle on Zealot is also largely nonexistent, making a full melee identity like this more appealing.

I like this concept as much as i liked playing full melee in VT2(very much). Maybe it’ll give someone some ideas. GG!

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I was genuinely expecting Hive Scum to get a double melee keystone. I hope someone gets one at some point.

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But instead, Hivescum is the definitive melee-ranged hybrid.:sweat_smile: I think that if anyone ever gets something like that, it should be the Zealot, since it’s already an evasive melee-focused class.

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No way zealot can push enemy ogryn with dodge when ally ogryn cant.

Why? If such changes ever implemented in game, meta would be using melee that good against single target(gimmick hammer, ds 4, knife) and melee for hordes.

Idea not new, but i kinda like it anyway. No point in trying to make zealot also viable ranged class.

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Fair. I wrote below that such a playstyle should exist as well, and I think it’s the most logical and common idea.

Bane of the Heretics exists solely for situations where you’re up against one or more bosses for a prolonged period of time and there aren’t enough other enemies around to stack Versatile Execution on them. That said, I agree it slightly undermines Sacred Tool’s identity.

Maybe it would make more sense to move the bonus damage against Monstrosities and Captains to Sacred Tool’s buffs, and give Bane of the Heretics something else instead - like increased duration, or the ability to gain stacks from dodges and perfect blocks(2 for each) rather than weakspot hits on bosses.

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Slayer Zealot with knives makes sense… maybe they can even get access to shivs

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I had more of Kruber’s grail knight in mind, with that cool sword&shield plus longsword combo, but something like the shivs would be cool too.

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they may need a shield weapon set then too to have a range block combo… would work well for rock Ogryn too… probably better than a tank keystone

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Successful dodges. Most people do not enjoy trying to time a “Perfect Block” during the chaos of Darktide.

This idea of melee only Zealot Keystone sacrificing ranged weapon for boons is a great idea. There should be more boons to Stam, move speed, and dodges, though. Attack speed amd weapon swap speed for sure too.

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I do.

But yeah, given the feedback, maybe something like these would be better:

Bane of the Heretics – upgrade to Versatile Execution. Successful dodges and perfect blocks against Ogryns, Monstrosities and Captains also grant 1 stack of Versatile Execution. Versatile Execution maximum stacks increased to 10.

Sacred Tool. While a weapon is inactive, gain 1 stack of Sacred Tool each second, up to a maximum of 16 stacks. Each stack grants: +3% damage, +1.5% damage to Monstrosities and Captains, +1.5% increased attack speed, +0.75% critical chance. Swapping to the inactive weapon starts the cooldown. Buff duration: 6 seconds.

Making Versatile Execution a more all-around, versatile damage node, and Sacred Weapon more about waiting for the right moment to pull out the hammer and vaporize a boss or two.

The keystone would already give 50% weapon swap speed, bonus movement speed and attack, increased dodge count, and increased dodge distance in baseline - making Zealot much more mobile. The upgrade nodes would also add stamina usage reduction, safety, and increased attack speed.

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I think its a cool idea to be able to have a class like zealot take two different melee weapons, it’s different and interesting

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Sadly full melee wouldn’t work quite as well as they did in VT2 (and nothing to speak of full ranged) due to the bigger emphasis on ranged enemies.

I do think a Crusader Branch could be an interesting idea for a full melee Zealot:

  • [Mechanic] House Training: Enable you to pick 2 Melee weapons tied to the Blitz choice
  • [Blitz] Rosarius: Defensive energy shield, which block ranged attacks until it overheat.
  • [Aura] Battle Conclave: Melee cleave buff
  • [Ability] Sanctified Blade: Grail Knight’s ability from VT2
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I think having an additional set of talents for classes would be cool, but expecting Fatshark to do that much work for free, while also risking breaking existing skill trees, is unrealistic. It’s the same problem as suggesting a dedicated stim lab-like or melee-only talent tree, at that point it would be far simpler to just replace a keystone.

Your Blitz could instead be a small talent node, or its effect could be folded into existing mechanics. Dodge-sliding already blocks all ranged damage, and being in cover does the same, so unless the goal is to let Zealot face-tank ranged damage outright, it makes more sense to further enhance the existing fast, slide-heavy playstyle by giving more dodges, longer dodge distance, and higher movement speed, allowing Zealots to reach ranged enemies much more reliably.

Two of Zealot’s three abilities are already gap-closers, you either dash or rapidly close the distance while invisible, and both options give Zealot very strong tools to get into ranged enemies’ faces safely.

That said, short bursts of ranged damage invulnerability are an interesting idea. Melee weakspot kills, backstab kills, or crit kills could grant one to two seconds of ranged damage invulnerability. Alternatively, Retributor’s Stance could grant ranged damage invulnerability in exchange for consuming stacks, for example one to two seconds of ranged damage invulnerability for four to five stacks, which would already make you nearly untouchable by gunners when combined with increased dodges, dodge distance, movement speed, Master’s Retribution, toughness regeneration, Until death, and similar effects, and that might honestly be too much.

Overall, I think the Zealot tree already has enough tools to deal with ranged enemies, including a stun Blitz, a one-shot Blitz for gunners, suppression on backstab, the best base dodges, high movement speed, excellent stamina management, ultimates that provide invulnerability or safe engagement windows, and large amounts of toughness damage reduction and replenishment, so adding yet another ranged counter on top feels unnecessary.

The only thing that really remains dangerous is specials. Some of Zealot’s existing tools already help with them, such as both Blitzes and all ultimates, but the game often throws dozens of specials at you at once, and without a ranged weapon that can become extremely difficult to manage. However, that difficulty is the inherent risk of the playstyle, and without it there would be almost no downside, you either outplay the specials yourself or rely on teammates.

This is where a significantly buffed and repositioned Master’s Retribution could actually make sense, because other Zealot archetypes don’t need it, they have ranged weapons and would barely ever proc it anyway, which makes the talent a wasted point right now. At the moment it functions mostly as a weak dog counter, something that can already be handled by pushing, dodging, or having a teammate nearby.

A reworked version could work against all disables, including bosses, dogs, trappers, and mutants, and it would also avoid false procs, since it would require a deliberate dodge input instead of triggering automatically in situations where it isn’t needed and then being on cooldown when it actually matters.

My only real concern with this keystone is that it would replace Inexorable Justice and, by extension, make Zealot a harder class. As boring as Inexorable Justice might be, it is an excellent option for newer players who don’t yet have the skill or confidence to switch to Martyrdom. I personally used Inexorable Justice with relic blades before moving on to Martyrdom, and it clearly has its place as a simple, safe keystone for non-crit weapons that provides exactly the stats that kind of playstyle needs.

It would be ideal if Fatshark simply added a fourth keystone archetype instead, but I seriously doubt they will ever design what is effectively one third of a class DLC for free.

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IMO all Zealot currently needs is Shivs and a Weakspot Damage increase talent. With that alone he should be set for a long while now

And do a few moves on the tree like this

image
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I like to think that whenever someone makes a cool new suggestion for zealot, vet, psyker, or ogryn, Fatshark writes it down under “cool ideas for the next class”

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Ratling somehow becomes a dual wielding slayer with blitz snipe shot for range

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The Talent cluster ditectly above Blazing Piety in combination with Blazing Piety is already a very safe option for new Zealots. Inexorable Judgement is definitely the Keystone that should be replaced by this melee only Zealot Keystone, as it’s redundant and offers mediocre buffs the other two Keystones offer better versions of.

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It isn’t any less unrealistic than seeing every tree be getting a 4th keystone tbh.

And having them the ability to be fully melee tied to the keystone would be difficult to make work.

And there are certainly ways to sell branches, if for example they’re not changing any of the already present branches in favour of making the dlc branches be on the side

Purely for illustration here how I would see it work if the Arbites for example:
Over the course of multiple update each tree get another update:

WiP
WiP1105Ă—1076 215 KB

Season A

Arbite Slate Agent:

  • Blitz: Shock Gun Somewhat like Psyker’s Smite, but more like a direct cone/blast
  • Aura: Embedded Agent Increase toughness generation when near Elites enemies
  • Dog: Independent Protocol Dog speed increase, but doesn’t return near the player
  • Ability: Not sure

Season B

Arbite Leash-master:

  • Blitz: Grapple Hawk Send out a Grapple Hawk on a cooldown, which will hunt the next visible target
  • Aura: Not sure
  • Dog: Impawsible Dog will remain close to the player, lose the ability to send the dog to a target but instead can send it to another player to guard them instead
  • Ability: Not sure
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Yes, but in essence it is a crit keystone combined with a crit talent cluster. We all know how strong those talents are even without investing into crits.

However, for new players using heavier, slower weapons, Inexorable Justice provides the necessary general stats to feel comfortable and learn the game without relying on special interactions or synergies.

A double melee keystone would remove this simplicity and comfort from the Zealot, even though I would currently prefer almost anything over Inexorable Justice.

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Would the DLC also come with additional talent points to spend? Because if the tree grows by 60% but we stay at the same number of points, it would be much harder to, for example, combine the leftmost nodes with the rightmost nodes. Even the “tax” nodes(no matter how good they are individually) would take up points that should go to the really important talents.

Yeah, they could sell entirely new archetypes, which is better than just adding new keystones, but that would also take more time to make and properly test.

My original idea is just to replace the existing Inexorable Justice with something more interesting. However, adding a 4th keystone would be easier than to make a whole new branch but as you said not profitable. Honestly, they could also leave everything as is and make this a lone-wolf kind of deal just for Zealot.

It could have two upgrades:

  1. Master’s Retribution - similar to how I described it, a buffed version of the current talent

  2. Another upgrade to encourage weapon swapping during fights( like a much less powerful Versatile Execution)

The “keystone” could be paired with every other keystone as is, so the class would still get its power from the other keystones. This one would just enable the no-range weapon playstyle and give some compensatory buffs. That’s it. Probably even a more elegant implementation than fully replacing Inexorable Justice.