[Attempt 2] Zealot Talent Tree

This time organized it in an excel spread sheet. Categorizing the three tree branches as Slow / Stagger, Support / Range, and Fast / Backstab. As these seem to be the most common themes of branches until the late keystone sections where things get messy.

Mostly a reorganization with some new choice nodes and less grenade focal stems at beginning.
Color coded red = offensive, green = defensive. * position changes

Besides re-ordering below are the tweaks from slight to major changes to existing and new talent nodes. Number adjustments and better recommendations desired.

Left Tree Talent Changes

Current: 30 Impact Strength (in 2nd tier, middle branch)

Reasoning: Each 2nd choice in branch has a toughness vs damage talent choice, fills roll for left tree and surplus of talents make for harder more variety in talent choices.


Current: Replenished 2.5% while near 3 enemies

Reasoning: Generally low toughness regeneration and more reason to support ally coherency.


Current: replaces left 2nd tier 5% movment node, new movement node further in tree.

Reasoning: Emphasizing stagger left branch with slower weapons boosted by staggering for further damage to increase staggering.


Current: replaces Duelist which moves to right tree 2nd tier

Reasoning: Duelist synergizes better with dodge focused / speed right branch of talents. Hitting weakspots will become harder when staggered and non-weakspot hits will do less damage in general so slight boost.


Current: +20% melee damage for 5s after depletion of stamina.

Reasoning: Allows for more usage, encouraging of push attack skill and less encouraging of sprint spam.


Current: Additional charge only

Reasoning: Zealot has tremendous CD reduction talents with little trade-offs typical of a 2nd charge, requires harder choices.


Current: Stacks up to 5 times for 25% impact strength and uninterruptible.

Reasoning: Impact strength… has low impact boosted, by time it takes to gather 5 stacks no longer need uninterruptible too low of a gain.


Current: Does not reduce damage taken.

Reasoning: Harder choice branch and improved use-ability. Brought up tree to provide actual choices to final tier.


Current: N/A New Talent

Reasoning: Fun filler choice to compete with ability CD reducer.


Current: +200% ability cooldown regeneration for 4s on melee critical hits.

Reasoning: Extremely easy uptime for crit heavy builds making CD’s too spam-able. Nerfing regeneration and period, making abilities more impactful.



Middle Tree Talent Changes

Current: +50% Coherency toughness regeneration

Reasoning: Coherency talents all are very weak should rather be combined (for every class) to compete with active toughness regenerators.


Current: -75% spread and -50% recoil on successful dodge.

Reasoning: More thematic of central range and supporting fire more rapid range deployment for more fluid rapid fighting with slower & recoil heavy weapons.


Reasoning: Just sticking with positional swap after feedback.


Current: When you or an ally in coherency takes damage, reduce damage by 50% for 5 seconds. Triggers once every 10 seconds.

Reasoning: Does not prevent triggering damage for little burst resistance to zealot group buffing. Increased cooldown and reduced duration to balance.


Current: N/A New Talent

Reasoning: encouraging a flame range zealot flavor that synergizes with fire skills and close range shooting. Very enemy reliant as damage boosts will drop off quickly if only trash is on fire but may be ignited by other sources flame grenade, flame thrower, laz gun crit blessings. Could drop monster ignition or only proc on damage boost on talent ignited enemies if too powerful.


Current: N/A New Combined Talents

Reasoning: combining heal based talents in old tier 1 to be more useful and give better health control to Martyrdom playstyle.


Current: Remove 1.5 corruption from your current wound healing 1.5 health per corruption removed every second for you and allies in coherency.

Reasoning: to gain slight surplus heal / toughness rate for unique circumstances for self and allies.


Current: 5 pulses, added invulnerability, 20% toughness per pulse to reach +100 Max toughness over +90.

Reasoning: Too good in duration and invulnerability, excessive perks to be added with further talents / tradeoffs.


Current: Builds up stagger distance with each pulse

Reasoning: more immediate distance staggering for better special resistance.


Current: N/A New ability choice branch

Reasoning: loss of stagger but guaranteed of allies / self being invulnerable during and for an additional second after, more vulnerable to special interruption.


Current: buffs only proc after final pulse.

Reasoning: More useful team buffs.


Current: no total toughness gain

Reasoning: Better survivability on low health / curio total toughness loss



Right Talent Tree Changes

Reasoning: Just sticking with positional swap after feedback, will still be as powerful but at extra talent tax.


Current: Loner, zealot always in coherency of at least 2

Reasoning: Loner is anti-team aura, aura. Zealot continues to benefit from coherency and allies auras on leaving while allies gain immediate toughness boost. Encouraging regrouping and supporting team when zealot hunts down ranged enemies peppering their toughness.


Current: enemies immediately de-aggro and attack allies while blocking zealot’s path

Reasoning: Provide a buffer pseudo stun period and re-aggro of enemies depending on un-stealth or ally attacking, while also adding Zealot mobility to lining up for a proper backstab.


Current: 25% increased cooldown and 50% damage/finesse bonuses

Reasoning: Powerful confusion period and better positioning will negate need for more damage and more in-line with 2nd charge cooldown cost plus negated by zealot CD reducing talents.


Current: Increased 50% stagger on weakspot hits.

Reasoning: competitive survival talent, for single target knockdown with CD.


Current: no stamina gain

Reasoning: More competitive mobility keystone and movement based synergy by adding stamina restore.



Too restrictive of talent themes? too powerful? Need more nerfs?

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3 Likes

IMO even assuming only one proc per swing that’s too much. Current Vicious Offering is fine it’s the relative lack of value surrounding it and leading up to it that holds it back.

Similarly I think current SG is honestly good and strong (it’s borderline guaranteed +30% reload speed for the way Zealot is usually using their gun) and just suffers from positioning. If it was in the current position of duelist I’d throw SG into almost every build. It’s the nodes surrounding SG that need buffs and reworks to make that cluster competitive.

While I do think Martyrdom is strong, this seems like a decent enough idea so long as Martyrdom build continues to lack easy access to good CDR. If Martyr’s Purpose was reworked into something actually useful for Martyr builds then I think getting this as well would be dubious.

Current TWBS is a top Zealot talent and perfect as is IMO. Complete stun immunity is a beautiful thing. I question adding Vet’s suppression immunity niche on top even if you remove the move speed bonus which was just a nice little bonus to begin with.

Never agreed with the nerf IJ got frankly so sure, why not.

Might come back to comment on other things or not but those are the things that I really wanted to comment on for now.

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Would have unintended affects.

Autopistol Zealot would be able to do what an achlys TLHS gunlugger with fire ult does.

Bolter with Puncture getting bonus fire stacks would also be very very strong

Can zealots use recon las now? Yeah, that too.

(That’s my only criticism)

4 Likes

I mean theoretically they could code in a unique fire dot for it with very low damage numbers so it mostly just functions as a buff activator.

Edit: Think SotT venom in VT2

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Yeah that’s true. If it was capped at 2 burn stacks that’d seem kinda lame at first until you use a brauto or autopistol to shoot a horde and get a free 25% damage boost. Obviously was meant for flamers but has that neat side effect.

Kinda like how Serrated Blade on veteran was meant only for bleed dagger builds, but still stacks very well with bleed/thunderous chainaxe.

I mean I like the idea, I’m just cautious about damage over time effects right now.

3 Likes

Somewhat of a tangent but is it even good for that? +1 bleed per hit seems minor if already running a bleed blessing. I guess it allows mercy killer + whatever non bleed blessing you want but is that actually good?

Also what’s the Chaxe synergy with it? Not familiar with that setup.

Okay was venturing a bit close to Ogryn playstyle anyway scrapping it.

Okay, there is no specific number was aiming for, most zealot weapons are fast reloads too and did also move it less deep into tree positionally, scrapping it.

This is my concern that TWBS was more of cheese talent too especially with speed boost. Did adjust its position 1 deep in repositioning so maybe it will be taxed enough there and your right supression was adopted from Vet’s, scrapped.

Otherwise thanks for feedback on other Martyrdom, IJ.

This too is my concern with new talent ideas not to be too powerful, the only downside being short lived damage boosts based on active burns and restricting it to close range shooting. Heavy bolter is going to wreck everything anyways adding and at close range will be more dangerous. The actual new burn damage also restricted to trash or bosses.

These are practically buffs. Remind me why do we needd buffs to one of the easiest and strongest class in the game?

Really like your dedication and effort. A small Feed-Back:

  • you wanted the left tree to cater to slow melee weapons, then Thy Wrath Be Swift has to be in the left tree. It is near mandatory on Thunder Hammers/ Indi Crusher/ Turtolsky sword, aka the slow weapons.
  • new talent “sucker punch” wants to give incentive for a non weak spot oriented play style, which I think is a wonderful idea so I will present a different approach: " Increase melee base damage by 50% but reduce melee finesse value by 50%"
  • Considering themes: Martyrdom does not fit the middle theme. I would consider swapping it with the crit keystone

Keep up your good work

2 Likes

Just the damage spike from keeping stacks topped on bosses and elites. You keep the max stacks up with light attacks so you don’t have to commit to new revved attacks. Thunderous is just to burn down Crushers but I’ve been feeling some kind of way about bloodletter + slaughterer or headtaker, too. It’s just different. And sometimes I want to play Monstrous Specials without bolter or recon.

My real opinion: :man_shrugging:

It’s placement on the tree is pretty bad and I’m not in a position to talk shop about knife veterans. Me using it for chainaxe is strictly fun maxxing.

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You scrap things too quickly! Let your OP marinate some.

I was seeing the ogryn link, too. I thought “half the toughness regen, but everything zealot is twice as fast, maybe a little overtune but that just puts it on par with dodging to get toughness”

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Thanks but maybe a more unique implementation than more of a class copy like toughness on multiple target hit more similar to blessings than other classes.

Most of the Zealot talents are fine, it’s the way the tree is structured that sucks.

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Alot of the keystones don’t seem to fit with rest of branches themes, For example Fury tends to be best overall but most in line with fast attack, crit focused right tree. Luckily them being at the end of talent tree is less detrimental to back and forth talent costs. I also find it useful as center as toughness book ability provides a strong safety net to low health / toughness martyrdom.

Reluctant to move talent from right speed focused tree as seems to be hallmark (though probably more cheese and unnecessary) of the right fast attack tree.

Attempted to give harder choices as Zealot will not be able to select all talents while adding some deeper positional changes, general nerfs to abilities or at least lessen anti-teamplay elements.

Perhaps should go after Until Death with a longer CD or what should be the targeted as Zealot’s most OP elements?

Structure was my main desire but really hard to display ideas in forum beyond a linked excel sheet, wish there was a custom talent tree maker or maybe ill try to photoshop something more easily seen/understood.

The entry tiers are modified to allow better grenade options and less depth sinks at beginning with harder choices in middle tiers and final tiers than boring single path talents and Until Death builds.

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