Zealot Feedback and Suggestions

So after about 40 hours of playing Zealot (amateur hours, I know), I have some general feedback and suggestions I’d like to give to help open up builds options and improve his feat tree. While initially concerned by his “copy paste” appearance compared to VT2 Zealot, I’ve warmed to his playstyle and feat tree to a great degree while playing him. That said, let’s quickly lay out some of the issues with him as context for the suggestions to follow. I don’t think he’s weak currently, but I think his feat tree is a little incoherent and lacking enough competitive options.

Firstly Martyrdom not stacking correctly currently further undermines his weakest build path. All suggestions further down are working on the assumption of Martyrdom working as per its descrition, +5% power per stack, with each stack gained per flat 15 health lost from maximum. Furthermore some of the low health mechanics have not been adapted well to how Darktide plays differently to VT2. Lastly, there is a significant lack of satisfying synergies across talent columns, that makes a number of choices dull, and sometimes redundant. Let’s go through column by column to discuss what is fine, and what could be tweaked. Please note I focused more on the concept for changes, and while I did put some thought into exact values, naturally they may need to be tweaked to be properly balanced.

One last note before going onto the feats themselves. Why does Chastise the Wicked vary so wildly in distance between the targeted and untargeted versions? The targeted version feels like triple the distance. Please make the untargeted version significantly closer the untargeted version in distance traveled, so if we try to target an enemy with it but they are a smidge too far away to target, we don’t feel like we’ve just completely wasted our Ult.

Column 1

Enemies Within, Enemies Without: Fine

Faith Restored: Fine

Purify in Blood: Currently - “Replenish 50% more toughness on melee kill.”
Change to - “gain 2% toughness regen per stack of Martyrdom.” Here is the first place we try to increase synergy across columns, and offer a more desirable option to what is currently present. There are a few different bonuses you could use here, the core idea is just that is stacks and synergises with the low health, Martyrdom playstyle that seems to be implied by other apects of Zealot’s kit. 2% might be too much, 1.5% might be more appropriate in light of 6 possible Martyrdom stacks. Or you could go 1% regen along with 2% toughness damage reduction to give it a smathering of both the other feats’ bonuses.

Column 2

Bloodletting: Fine

Punishment: Fine

Retribution: Currently - “+10% attack speed below 50% health. Bonus is doubled below 20% health.”
Change to - “Gain 4% attack speed per stack of Martyrdom”. The current values of 50% and 20% max health are non sensical with Martydrom being able to gain even 6 stacks before hitting the 50% health mark with health curios. Again the idea here is to increase synergies, as well as make the bonus more granular, so it functions more as a gradient than being “on or off”. You could also play around with some spicier bonuses here, like +3% attack speed paired wtih +3% move speed per Martyrdom stack.

Column 3

Benediction: Fine

Holy Fervour: Fine

Inspiring Excoriation: Currently - “+20% power to allies in coherency for 5 seconds upon gaining a stack of Martyrdom.”
Change to - “Allies in coherency gain 50% of your Martyrdom bonuses while in coherency range”. Assuming the current feat works how the description makes it sound, it’s just so conditional and so short lived as to be pretty much dead on arrival. Please note that for this suggestion, it would share the power, and the attack speed from Retribution, but the toughness regen from Purify in Blood would probably be too much. I dunno, maybe it could have all 3 but you tweak it down to 30% of the bonuses or something similar.

Column 4

Holy Revenant: Fine

Faith Restores All: Currently - “After taking damage, you regain 25% of the damage taken over 5 seconds.” Maybe buff to 50%? Feels a little lacklustre currently, maybe 50% would be too much, but assuming it gets cancelled by consecutive instances of damage would probably be fine.

Thy Wrath Be Swift: Probably Fine? I’m a bit lost with this column, Holy Revenant is so good it’s hard to come up with credible competition. Some might say “make Holy Revenant passive!” or some such, but my intention with these changes is to leave his current strong builds basically left as is while just bumping up alternatives for more varied build variety.

Column 5

Rising Conviction: Fine. Maybe nerf to 3%? I dunno it’s probably fine.

Emperor’s Executioner: Probably fine for a flamer build? Dunno, haven’t experimented with flamer or this talent so unsure.

Honour the Martyr: In light of the changes in previous rows, 6 stacks of Martyrdom becomes a much more desirable option, as you are gaining the potential to double up to 3 different bonuses. Again a reminder this is all operating on the assumption that Martyrdom properly stacks per 15 flat lost health, allowing you to keep a good amount of health and still achieve max stacks. If combined the bonuses ended up a bit too easy to maintain, Martyrdom could always be slightly nerfed to stacking per 20 health instead.

Column 6

Invocation of Death: Fine

Purge the Wicked: Fine

Fury of the Faithful: Current - “+20% attack speed for 5 seconds upon using Chastise the Wicked.” To be honest I’m not quite sure where this one stands currently, but I have a strong feeling it won’t be getting picked often over the other two. You could continue the Martyrdom synergies with “+50% Martyrdom bonuses for 5 seconds after using Chastise the Wicked.” I don’t know, it’s hard to compete with how much more you get to use your Ult with the other 2 options.

Apologies for how long and rambly that all is. I hope these ideas at least help to provoke more conversation about how to round out Zealot’s feat tree and create more build paths.

Sorry if this is a faux pas, tagging a few people I know have played damnation for feedback on these suggestions and Zealot generally.

@Radina.Shevu @Heavytech @Haiboku

7 Likes

I want to start by reiterating what you mentioned that zealot in his current state with the right talents and weapons is very good. i currently have about 110 hours in zealot and now i exclusively play damnation unless im doing weekly quests i will knock some of them out in heresy.

I really like the level 5 talent change option you mentioned but since its a toughness regen talent im thinking it should replace enemies within, enemies without and they should either keep purify in blood the same or just increase the number because currently i can never see myself using either talents. i would probably try the talent regen change you mentioned though just to see how it feels in game.

Retribution. another great idea. current talent is trash and this really is a good idea.

inspiring excoriation is the worst talent i have ever seen. the change you proposed is interesting but seems like it could make zealots feel like they should just get low and stand next to team all game when in actuality a zealot is strongest when its ahead of its team suppressing ranged fire. and how would it work with multiple zealots. in general i dont like coherency for zealot i think everything in this row should be things that help the zealot when he is NOT in coherency.

fath restores all. awful talent. changing the numbers still doesnt change how bad of a talent it is i would never pick it no matter what. like you said holy revenat is just the best way to play zealot i cant imagine why anyone wouldnt pick it.

fury of the faithful is also a pretty bad pick. i think all 3 talents should be ways to ult more, not just the 2. maybe this one could have some bleeding synergy. im not sure but either way right now ill never pick it.

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Well half the aim was to replace the feat that to my knowledge does not get picked. The only other variable I could think to adjust besides regen and DR was just a bonus to all toughness gained (think like boon of shallya from VT2), but without any regen outside coherency and melee kills I thought it might still not be desirable. Y’know, something like +10% toughness received per stack of Martyrdom (basically just copy pasting more VT2 talents lol).

Yeah fair point, I was mostly trying to stay in theme with the rest of the column feats, which are currently all coherency related as is.

Yeah I’ll bow to greater experience here. Barely used the talent and when I did I didn’t notice its impact much.

Feels a bit lame to have a whole column devoted to different flavours of ulting more, but I agree it’s hard to come up with something that would compete when more Ult uptime is just very valuable.

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Chastise the Wicked would feel a hell of a lot better if it prevented the zealot from being staggered or suppressed on the charge.

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Zealots biggest problem right now are row 5 and 10. The 75% DR is really good and you will suffer without it in Heresy and Damnation. Getting that talent to activate on other weapons that are not normal Axes and Knifes would be a huge boon to the career.

Without Shred, or Lacerate your DR uptime is horrible. With one or the other, the only thing that can end you is not being aggressive enough (aka stop hitting things, or not getting into the middle of a range camp), or getting caught by any special, or flames. (This might sound a tad overpowered, which it might be, but be assured that there are plenty of situations each wave that requires you to take the right decision so you don’t need to sort your guts while lying on the ground.)

There is a trait on chain weapons that grants bleed on special activation, but it takes too long to activate the weapon in the enemies face.
FS could either change how the DR is activated or add another crit talent in row 10 that activates on cleave/kill. (Or something else. I don’t know.) It would be nice to play any weapon that doesnt have Shred, or Lacerate on it.

(It doesnt help that even if you ignore the DR on crit, Knives and Axes are by far the best melee weapons right now. Actually working fast and far dodges with a high dodge count. Good damage to meat and armor. High sprint speed. Extremely fast animations and blocking. They are perfect to get in and out of sticky situations. Other weapons, like the Eviscerator, are just beat sticks that get you stuck when you are not allowed to get stuck. It just makes you look awesome while you get turned into cheese.)

Sure. Zealots other Feats are not exactly overwhelming. But they also don’t restrict you into a weapon type. Check out Veterans level 30 feats. They are perfect. Whatever gun you pick, you have a feat that will enhance it. Zealot is the melee class that is shoehorned into two types of weapons. The most boring ones.

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Thy Wrath be Swift is actually OP. Not being staggered by damage is insane, plus you get movement speed. You can melee forever. It’s so good I don’t bother with anything else in the category.

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Pretty sure Thy Wrath be Swift fixes this.

Didn’t they at least fix it being interrupted by gunfire at least? Or are you talking about being staggered by melee?

I still dont understand what is the point of Emperor’s executioner talent, and how does in work. I mean, it says up to 25% range damage depending on proximity from target. But you do more when close or far? I tried testing it with laspistol and flamer in meat grinder but couldnt see any difference either way…

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One quick note: martyrdom isnt flat 15 health but 15%. Eitherway fatshark is at fault here

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How do you know that when it’s been stacking incorrectly since start of PRB and the description just says 15?

If it’s meant to be 15% 6 Martyrdom Feat is unsaveable. It’s a hard enough sell over borderline unconditional +20% damage at 15 flat health lol.

It would make sense to be 15% from a game design standpoint. This wouldnt be the first place they forgot to add or remove something.
So far all ive noticed is that i tend to get stacks when losing a certain %age of hp. And they are not reset properly by qome forms of healing

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One thing that would immensely improve the Zealot if they could add double tap G to quick drop stun grenades at your feet.

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My take on this isn’t super in-depth because I’m kind of tired of posting things and just the general amount of grind and rng in this game/missing features.

That being said, I think martyrdom having a proper description or being fixed to match it’s current one is where we need to start before we try to balance any feats around it. (also think it’s dumb anyways)

This will be controversial, but I think building a class around having low hp in a game where you avoid taking damage is just stupid to begin with. As a result I don’t play my zealot as a low hp berserker, I try to avoid all damage at all times while being a pretty efficient melee machine. I find the class fun to play like this.

I’m not really into 40k lore so maybe what I’m going to suggest goes against a zealot but I’d much rather the class focus on the melee mechanics in the game. Something similar to handmaiden from VT2 makes more sense to me. Things like the following make more sense to me;

  • Successful dodges increase attack speed or power, something like 3-5 percent per successful dodge?
  • Toughness on kill makes sense to me, same with being surrounded by enemies.
  • feats built around triggering martyrdom granting bonuses to teamates is dumb, remove entirely since it’s so situational.
  • Aura around Zealot grants damage reduction or increased stamina regen.
  • Upon taking x% damage, push back surrounding enemies. Perhaps like 25-50% of hp.
  • attack speed bonus on crit damage.
  • Regen 25% health within 5 seconds of taking damage is fine to me, 50% is excessive.
  • Perhaps a feat that grants more stamina, stamina regen or a block cost reduction. or even just greater dodge range/dodge count
  • feats built around stunning an enemy. This is vague I know, but perhaps if you hit more than x amount of targets, or chaining certain attacks grants more stagger. Even just a base stagger increase feat.
    -movement speed feat would be great for zealot to be able to close the distance with ranged units. Could even be that your sprint is 25% faster, or movement speed is increased by 25% when taking ranged damage.
  • Reduce stagger from ranged damage feat.

I could go on and on. My point is I think the whole low hp = more damage idea is stupid and should be scrapped. Instead make zealot more focused on successful dodging, blocking, attack speed. Zealot should be a melee killing machine. His weakness being ranged enemies, so give him some utility to be able to close the gap other than the ult which just gets interrupted half the time lol.

I’d rather the class be built around successfully using the melee mechanics instead of purposely taking damage to get better attack speed or damage yourself. If you have a good knowledge and skill level of the game’s mechanics this class should reward that I think.

Currently it’s a mixed bag, it rewards you for taking damage, but also for maintaining a certain level. And with how many people complain about toughness not blocking all melee damage even with the latest changes (non issue for me), I think just getting rid of the whole, sustain yourself on only 10% health should just be removed. Then no one can complain about chip damage killing their low hp zealot, even if I think that is a skill issue personally.

tldr: Remove low hp based class features, replace with skill based feats that are centered around your ability to dodge, block, and perform well in melee.

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Oh I completely agree, I think the low health shtick is dumb and has little place in a game like this. I just assumed that level of rework was not on the cards.

But yeah 100% ditch Martyrdom and other low health feats and replace them with things that actually interact meaningfully with gameplay.

You know that is literally a feat already in the second column right? It’s what I run with Evicerator and Thunder Hammer.

I don’t get why they changed it to this from the open beta where it was 1% critchance for you and allies in coherency per stack. Being able to give you and your pals 3-6% cc depending on how comfortable you were with lower health gave more incentive to pick 6 stacks of martyrdom over the scaling damage on hits. As it is now it feels as pointless as all of those +power on no ammo feats that were in vt2 sans a few exceptions. Having to constantly heal and then take certain amounts of damage/get hit have never been fun playstyles.

I want to see some more feats that benefit setting enemies on fire for Zealot, especially with how under utilised the primary fire for the flamer is by the community despite it functioning as a massive infinite cleave shield bash.

and of course the melta and other nasty fire based weapons to be given to the Zealot. Give me a nice chunky shotgun with incen. rounds

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Man I want to like flamer, but that draw time straight up murders the utility of the primary fire as a quick interrupt. I don’t get why that gun needs both a lengthy ready animation for continuous fire AND a lengthy animation for getting the weapon out.

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Yeah i use that feat as well. I know some of the things I listed exist, it was more just an overview of how I think the class should be in general.

I probably should have had the game up to compare while writing but I’m too lazy lol.

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Hi, Damnation zealot player here as well. Almost 100 hours into the character. I agree that every talent you’ve suggested to change are weak talents that I never considered using, or tried and confirmed that they’re awful. EXCEPT for “thy wrath be swift” in the level 20 row. I’ve been using it to great effect as an uninterruptible berserker build with the eviscerator, relying on either the Momentum blessing (toughness on multiple hit) or just savage sweep + rampage to keep my toughness permanently above 80% or so when fighting melee.

I agree with everything else though, the other talents you are suggesting fixes for all need fixes.

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It doesn’t seem to be fixed for me.

Great suggestions!

EDIT:
Shouldn’t this be in the Gameplay Feedback forums?

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