Making everything Cata viable

Warhammer: Vermintide 2 Feedback
1

This post will include Career and Weapon suggestions to make them work better on Cata difficulty. I will also point out what I see as being too strong on Cata.

1. Bardin
2. Kerillain
3. Kruber
4. Saltzpyre
5. Sienna
6. 1H Swords and Axes

1. Bardin:

My suggestion for Bardin is to give RV and IB a 5% Attack Speed Passive increase, making his 2H Melee Weapons more viable on those Careers. E.g. Mining Pick, Greataxe and 1H Axe.

While these Careers have good survival in Melee, their damage output is quite low compared to most of the other Careers in the game. Ranger Veteran could do with some Melee buffs in general. He’s nowhere close to other Ranged Careers in Melee.

Giving them 5% Attack Speed buffs their Melee Weapons without risking making Slayer incredibly OP (he already gets 7.5% Attack Speed Passive).

An alternative route would be to give Mining Pick and Greataxe a built in Crit% on their push-attacks or first attacks. This would allow for these Careers to get Swiftslaying up quickly, and won’t have much of an effect on Slayer because of his Attack Speed anyway.

Greataxe
While recently buffed to be really good, it sometimes starts fights awkwardly, similar to Exe Sword, where you’re reliant on Swiftslaying for Attack Speed. The Push-Attack of Greataxe is really slow, considering it’s supposed to be a somewhat safe attack. Increasing it’s speed, Cleave or giving it inherent Crit% could help.

Axe and Shield
Would love to see this gain the same 10% Crit Chance as the normal 1H Axe, as it still suffers from all of the same damage output problems that 1H Axes do. On Cata+ Mace and Shield outshines it because of this.

Handgun
While Handgun can reach a breakpoint to one-shot most Elites, it can become extremely difficult to get the reload off against Cata density. This makes it very unforgiving, and difficult to maintain ammo for, especailly on IB, because of the low Crit% and difficulty to land a headshot every time.

As it’s a high damage slow reload Weapon, my suggestion would be to just further increase the Boss damage, so it can be even more useful. IB/RV don’t have much Boss killing compared to other Careers, so this could help without having to change reaload speeds or add inherent reload reduction on headshots.

It would also give IB (Shield Weapon) a useful Ranged Weapon as he’ll spend most of the match pushing enemies and defending the people who are Special killing. He becomes a little useless and awkward when it comes to Bosses, unless he’s running the Taunt Talent of course.

Drake Guns
‘Drakki Wrath’ takes too much Health to maintain, with little payoff. The Overcharge generated should only be increased by 10-15% if at all, to even compare with the Blood of Grimnir Talent, which works out better over all.

I play 1H Mace + Drakefire Pistols and do Push-Attack > weapon switch > Drakefire Pistol Charged shots into Hordes, for damage, and I still wouldn’t take ‘Drakki Wrath’ on Cata.

2. Kerillian (muh main):

Spear
This weapon really struggles to deal with too many Elites on Cata, it would be nice if it gained some Armour Penetration back on Charged Attacks. It’s also far outshined by Shield + Spear, even if you stack Armoured/Chaos Power.

Greatsword
Now one of my favourite Melee Weapons on Handmaiden. I’d love to see the Charged Attack gain some Crit%, Armour Penetration, or higher damage in general. It’s one of the most difficult Weapon Attacks in the game to land, but has very little pay off. That’s all it really needs as the Crit% on Push-Attacks makes this a great Weapon for Horde clearing and survival in general.

Glaive
Would be nice to see this weapon get an extra Stamina Shield, as it’s only worth using on HM in it’s current state. The mobility, speed and dodge number make it awkward for WS. Shade, however can still use it to great effect. This also means you can’t get much Block Cost Reduction with it, because you have to take Stamina instead.

Volley Crossbow
Still slightly awkward and clunky to use, when compared to BoP and Repeater Handgun insta switching and spamming.

Shade:
Exquisite Huntress with SnD and DD, completely trivializes the game. Even on Twitch Mode it’s ridiculous. Not sure how Shade keeps ending up being so insanely broken, but here we are again. You don’t even need Ults for Bosses, you can just take the 40% CDR Talent for more survival.

Handmaiden:
It would be nice to see a new Shield Weapon on her, which was slower, but could actually Stagger Chaos Warriors, and stop Overheads from other Elites. Spear and Shield is very good, but due to it’s damage, it can mainly be built as a DPS weapon.

WS:
The last two rows of her Talent Tree are ‘Asrai Focus’ and ‘Kurnous’ Reward’, with ‘Spirit Arrows’ being a potential must-have too, depending on player skill and team build. Nothing else is worth taking on Cata.

3. Kruber:

Handgun
As with Bardin’s: '> While Handgun can reach a breakpoint to one-shot most Elites, it can become extremely difficult to get the reload off against Cata density. This makes it very unforgiving, and difficult to maintain ammo for, especailly on IB, because of the low Crit% and difficulty to land a headshot every time.

As it’s a high damage slow reload Weapon, my suggestion would be to just further increase the Boss damage, so it can be even more useful.’

It’s still awkward on Huntsman too.

Executioner’s Sword
I may get some flack for this one because Exe is quite strong as-is, but in high density situations, with Elites and smaller enemies, it can be a hard weapon to start off with. My technique is to use a Push-Attack > (short) Charged, because of the inherent Crit% on the Charged Attacks, I try to get Swiftslaying up.

I think the Push-Attack of this weapon, needs some inherent Crit%, so that you can safely get Swiftslaying up, and don’t take too much damage waiting for it to proc.

Greatspear
Still really good, the change to it’s Stagger profile did the job. One of the best peeling/Frontlining Weapons in the game.

Repeater Handgun
This is his best Ranged Weapon by far, and in my mind, a bit too strong. He can quickly switch to it and land shots faster than actual Ranged Careers with Bows, etc can get ready to take a shot. If you add another Ranged Weapon like Crossbow to him, you should definitely think about tuning RH down. Until then it should remain, as he his other options aren’t great for Special Killing.

Huntsman:
Give him Multiple Hit THP, instead of the Killing Blow THP. It’s weird that he has Stagger THP, and can’t maintain with Killing Blow, it limits the Weapons he can use.

4. Saltzpyre:

Falchion
Add a Stamina Shield, to make it on-par with his other Weapons. No real need for it to only have 2.

Billhook
Power Creep. Not sure how to fix this one. The Special-Attack > L2 combo just seems broken when spammed. Not sure how many people are doing this though (I have my Special-Attack button bound to my mouse).

Axe and Fachion
Remove inherent Crit% from Push-Attacks. This is one of the best Melee Weapons in the game, and really doesn’t need Swiftslaying up so quickly. It doesn’t make sense to have that on this weapon, but not on the bigger slower Weapons. Power creep.

Repeater Crossbow
Needs a buff imo. It should have decent cleave vs Hordes, but at reduced damage, and it should grant a damage bonus when landing all three bolts on an enemy. This will make it good for Elites and Bosses, while having some damage on Hordes, without completely destroying them.

Bounty Hunter:
As with Huntsman, give him Multiple Hit THP, instead of the Killing Blow THP. It’s weird that he has, he can’t maintain with Killing Blow THP, it limits the Weapons he can use.

Zealot:
Really does not need his Power bonus to effect his Ranged damage too. It makes BoP too good on him. He’s able to effectively Special Kill and Frontline at the same time, because of the speed of the Weapon Switch, and the damage he does with BoP. I think his Power should be split like Unchained.

WHC:
Incredibly strong, but takes a lot of skill to play well. Do not think he needs a nerf.

5. Sienna:

Dagger
Still great, but I still think it would be nice if the Push-Attack chained into C2.

Mace
Still has great survival, but when put against Flail, it’s just not worth the slower weapon and less damage. The Charged Attacks could be faster or deal more damage, to help it compete.

Flail
Probably her best all-rounder weapon. Downside is the Charged Attack speed, but at least it has a downside.

Bolt Staff
While Bolt has definitely seen some improvements, and Pyro/BW can make good use of it, it’s still a little awkward, and not really worth it compared to other Staffs, it also relies on being built heavily to make it worthwhile.

6. 1H Swords and Axes:
Swords
Saltzpyre - Falchion is good, because the attacks are all overheads, and the lights deal Armour damage. I think adding the Stamina Shield will make this worthwhile on Cata, so you can take Block Cost too. If it doesn’t receive that, it’ll rarely be used.

Kerillian - Awkward on WS, because of low power and low Crit%, low damage output. Good on HM and Shade because of passives and bonuses. The inherent Crit% on Charged Attacks, and overhead attacks make this a little more viable.

Kruber - Low Armour damage. Either needs to be made to deal Armour Penetration on Lights or given more Crit%. Extremely viable on Merc, because of Passives/Power/Crit(Crit allows you to do Armour damage on Lights instead of doing the Charged combo). Awkward on Footknight outside of Horde clearing. Slightly better on Huntsman because of Crit%, but as stated before, on Kill THP and Stagger THP don’t synergize with this weapon.

Sienna - Similar to Kruber, because of the moveset. Pyro most viable, because of Crit (+ her Ult deals with Elites too). Unchained, it’s ok for Horde clearing, but is horrible vs Elites. BW not really worth using it at all.

Axes

Saltzpyre - Zealot makes use of it, because of his insane Attack Speed, WHC can be slightly viable with it, but suffers vs Hordes, and his other weapons synergize with his Passives better. BH can kind of work, but struggles because of THP generation and his lack of Horde Clear in general.

Bardin - Only ever worth using on Slayer, and he has better options too. The Horde clearing and THP generation from IB and RV make it unusable. 5% AS could help with this, but probably not solve the issue. Maybe make it a Boss killing weapon.

Kerillian - Usable on HM and Shade because of Passives, but still lacking compared to all of her other weapons. The Horde clear is low, and the Elite/Monster killing is outdone by other more versatile weapons. Kind of usable on WS, if you use it to get Blood Shot, but struggles against Hordes because of THP generation.

3 Likes
2

Noone had any thoughts at all? I genuinely think these changes would make Cata way more balanced. The only thing I didn’t go into was Weaves.

3

I just disagreed with the first few lines so figure we don’t see things the same. Example Ironbreaker is tremendously effective, he needs nothing. And not every weapon for a character need be viable on all three careers. Elf 1h sword is great on WS. And Elf axe is great on HM, including due to talent choices. The main improvements we need now are to RV and UC.

3 Likes
4

Yah that’s a tremendous read bit too much and I agree with sweetbeak not every weapon needs to be usable on every character some weapons just synergize better with certain classes ie Shade + Dual Wields, HM and Push/Attacks (Spear,1h Sword).

Also I’m more advocating balance around Legend, Cata is a small pool of players and they should be using best / optimal builds and weapons and not everything can be it.

There are weapons that are just meh should use some buffs Axe’s in general sacrifice almost all cleave for AP should be some more give or at least get that passive crit buff.

Kruber 2H Sword can never feel fast enough its always got a clunky feel no matter how much i love it at times.

Sienna Dagger Buff - YES been a long time asking for this =( still a great weapon near perfect…so close

A weapon you missed is shotguns there pretty terrible now especially without the scrounger resupply removed so sad.

3 Likes
5

While I agree with this to a degree, there should definitely be an attempt made to at least make them usable. Other than the 5% AS buff (and I’m in no way suggesting both buffs to weapons and AS Passives at the same time), most of the suggestions I made for Mining Pick/Greataxe, wouldn’t effect Slayer’s gameplay in the least. A faster Push-Attack or inherent Crit% on the Push-Attack would only really benefit RV and IB, in getting Swiftslaying up with those weapons, and making them a little more viable.

After all, on Cata, that’s three (four if you count DA’s) Melee Weapons which Slayer can use, which RV and IB would struggle with.

While I agree IB still quite decent in melee, he can’t really compete with FK or UC in melee, as they get AS passives.

Attack Speed on Cata = Defensive stat, so I’m not only suggesting this for offensive damage, which wouldn’t come close to Slayer’s anyway with these buffs.

Care to elaborate, or is this about the clunkiness surrounding some of her Talents from other threads? In which case I would agree.

RV Shotgun, Huntsman Shotgun, Merc Shotgun, and IB with high Power VS Chaos/Inf Shotgun, I don’t really have an issue with these. I just wish to god they’d make it deal more damage to Packmasters.

I find the 2H Sword a bit boring, but I’ve seen people on the forum swear by it being one of their main go-to weapons for Cata+, so I’m not really in a place to comment. All I know is Exe Sword/2H Sword vs Shield enemies and Monks is death. :skull_and_crossbones:

6

I disagree so fundamentally with nearly everything you write, its not worth reaponding

2 Likes
7

Thanks for responding, and welcome back.

1 Like
8

Whc takes a lot of skill to use? Laughs in lmb spamming rapier at heads. Has I believe the highest unarmored melee dps in the game. Also, why shouldn’t a career like shade be good? 120hp careers should always be stronger than 150+ hp careers to counter them being made out of tissue paper. Now if you said shade was op on wom release when her ult was broken and dd had 3 bleed stacks I’d agree with you but she’s fine as is with the fix to her ult and dd getting reverted.

9

He has low damage mitigation, and even with the lmb spam that Weapon takes much more thought than a lot of others. The only thing I would nerf on him is the Ult that gives him 100% Crit, but that probably won’t happen. I don’t like how easy it is to build Crit for the one-shot mechanic, but it’s not likely to change.

SnD/DD with Exquisite Huntress. Play it on Twitch mode.

Also it’s kind of funny you think WHC is OP, yet Shade easily outdamages him and can solo half of the map before he can even reach enemies with the 30% Movement Speed increase. And with the build I mentioned you can trivialize Bosses without using Ult, if people leave you alone with it.

Everything should be good, that’s the point of this thread, but they shouldn’t be brokenly OP. We don’t even play Shade, or severely limit our builds if we do, because of how much it trivializes things.

3 Likes
10

I mostly agree, but let me to be more precise:

Here I don’t agree so much. RV needs a talents rework, but I would give to him more “ranged power” instead of 5% attack speed.
While I don’t think that IB needs a buff BUT this problem is real:

making his 2H Melee Weapons more viable

Indeed I would rework 2h Hammer in this way: light combo should be a little bit slower while heavy combo should be faster.

I agree with you but I would prefer give it more penetration. I like Handgun’s style, it’s meant to be a slow but strong weapon, it’s a unique niche… but, in game, this doesn’t happen: it’s enough that the target is behind a simple rat and your weapon becomes useless.

I agree.

I agree.

I agree… these weapons would need some love. I would give them more stagger (because currently it seems like beating a wall with a spoon), but this “more stagger” could come also from an HM rework.

She should be an aggressive tank (indeed Fatshark gave to her Spear and Shield). This means that she must not be tough as IB… but she still needs some damage reduction. 10%? 15%? And, as written above, more stagger.

It could seem too strong because it’s almost the only good Krub’s ranged weapon… but trust me, it has some cons that make it well balanced:

  • poor berserker damage (you need 5-7 shots!);
  • none super-armor damage (think if you play Huntsman on War Camp :S);
  • it can’t exploit Huntsman’s headshots talents;
  • less accurate than bow/crossbow (when you see a far enemy you must shoot very slow and you could still miss the shot);
  • it still needs 3 bodyshot to kill most elites (and packmaster)… it’s less immediate than Blessed Shot + Crossbow or Bloodshot + Longbow. While you fire these three shots you can be hit.

I would give him less headshots’ talents (they are too many! Tier 20 has only headshots talents) and more talents that can fit better with Blunderbuss and Repgun.

11

I’ve been messing with UC lately. Fun and great melee kills when things are under control, like when ranged teammates control specials. But in cata twitch with lots of gas and gunners it was constant panic. She basically has 40 effective hp when heated halfway to get speed buff. Quick venting is great when well orchestrated, but when all hell breaks loose she’s just far more vulnerable than comparable classes zealot and slayer. As people have been saying, the huge extra risk isn’t worth the marginal melee reward in general.

And RV, I got his 100 win hat before WoM. Haven’t hardly played him since, he’s not very fun above legend.

4 Likes
12

Handgun needs to have the Railgun effect back, including ALL shields in the line of fire, plus a MINOR tweak to the reload speed so it doesn’t get stupid with RV/HS.

3 Likes
13

I feel like this is a little reductive, generally those classes either don’t need to melee frontline or have some other way of avoiding or mitigating damage. Considering how little you should be facetanking and how much damage enemies on higher difficulties do, I don’t think it’s reasonable to act like those lower health careers are so much harder to play that it’s cool for them to just be strictly better most of the time.

2 Likes
14

Yeah, this is an issue for me too. Lag hits/FF making you blow up is one of the most irritating things in the game. No other Career is this vulnerable, despite the fact that she’s also one of the tankiest Careers in the game.

This is why I’m recommending the melee buff to him. Bardin’s Weapons have the lowest kill potential in the game, when not used on Slayer (who gets 7.5% AS Passive before any Talents), making his ranged Career’s Melee some of the lowest in the game.

Look at him compared to WS. Her Melee Weapons are all fast enough and versatile enough to make use of despite her having no real Melee Talents. Whereas, RV on Cata, can take hits during downtime, because most of your build rightfully goes into Range, leaving him slow and lacklustre in Melee.

If you play with 3 good people and they spam feed you Items he’s really good, but outside of that and the Shotgun build, he’s not worth using.

15

Yet you have careers like merc who can just beat everything up with a spear which even post nerf is still very strong or zealot who can play with his eyes closed while simultaneously gaining so much thp that he’s basically immortal to anything short of a disabler. And both of those careers also have more base hp and damage reduction abilities and can get comparable damage dealt throughout a run to squishier careers for less effort. Whc and even slayer post 2h hammer nerf somewhat fall under this too tanky to die but still comparable dps category.

2 Likes
16

Yep the squishy glass cannons are usually considered the range classes and melee burst in Shade who has good escape.

Yet some are just squishy and no cannon, being pure range in a melee game also comes with tunnel vision and easily surrounded without a AoE range. RV being the biggest outlier at least has a survival ult but not a lot of teeth to warrant using him.

So you really need top tier melee or great ammo usage to make range dps work. The later being very annoying for rest of group in general.

4 Likes
17

Level 20 tier is typically the tier that focuses on a career’s passive, in Huntsman’s case that’s ammunition on headshot so it makes sense these talents also focus on headshots.

1 Like
18

+1

I thought this topic was going to be about weapons that aren’t really decent with any career, or talents that aren’t really worth selecting with any weapons. Most of the suggested tweaks just don’t seem necessary.

2 Likes
19

But I can’t understand why we should have an entire tier (and some other talents) based on one only passive when this reduces the variety… I mean, it’s not a law to be respected or some kind of obligation…

Moreover Huntsman is already the career with the highest number of talents based on one only passive.

When I play Blunderbluss or Repgun I feel I’m wasting one entire tier.

2 Likes
20

I disagree with this sentiment. If you are going to design weapons / classes to interact in such a way that some weapons are only going to be viable on certain classes, you will restrict variety a lot. Might as well restrict more weapons for each class then… And there’s no reason for that.

I understand some weapons are just going to synergise with some classes better than others. Rapier on WHC, shields on Footknight, etc… But there’s no reason at all to not make weapons viable in their own right. If that would result in an overpowered class + weapon combo, I’d rather the class was tweaked instead of a weapon being junk when not used by one sprcific class.

3 Likes