Live Release overhaul is bad for the game. Here's why

So during the closed/open betas, there were very clear talent, passive, and career abilities that needed an overhaul. Waystalker regen was OP, Huntsman Career Ability was OP, regen necklace trait was OP, and infinite buff potion use at the cost of a little hp was OP. But honestly, that was it. Simple tweaking could have fixed it but they decided to nerf EVERYTHING and now the game is in a state where everything outside of your natural skill / career abilities has almost NO affect on the actual gameplay. The nerf hammer was heavily overused during release overhaul. Here are some changes that could be made to counter-balance the overnerf they implemented.

KERILLIAN

Waystalker - is in a good place. Health regen was too strong and needed a nerf. However, I’d suggest giving it a slight buff to heal up to 50% of your maximum health BEFORE being reduced by grims. An entire talent tree depends on regen ticks which almost never happens now unless she lets herself be hit a few times and drop to critical health.

Handmaiden - is in a good place as a dodge tank and has excellent survivability. I’d suggest buffing the bleed as right now it’s 100% unnoticable on champion. I’m hero power 545 and I don’t think I’ve seen anything die to bleed damage.

Shade - is among the 3 weakest classes in the game and has probably 0 playtime by most of the community. I suggest changing the stealth to give ONE melee attack a 3x damage + 100% crit for that single attack. Cooldown is too long and does too little damage to even consider it a viable career ability compared to others.

KRUBER

Foot Knight - Is capable of filling the role of a tank but is vastly outclassed by the Iron Breaker. I’d suggest buffing the reduced damage taken for Kruber himself.

Huntsman - I suggest changing his career ability to grant him a similar damage buff as the previously mentioned shade but limit it to a range attacks only that also has infinite piercing. Should also NOT apply stealth as too many character’s have that ability.

Mercenary - is in a good place and fulfills a role as a melee dps. Ranged dps is heavily outclassed by Pyromancer / Waystalker.

BARDIN

Iron Breaker - is by far the strongest tank to take in Champion / Legend as his AOE taunt/knock back and 360 degree block/push angle makes him ideal for allowing your dps to survive almost any encounter.

Slayer - Is among the 3 weakest classes as the damage output almost never beats Waystalker, Pyromancer, or Bounty Hunter and has no ranged attacks with which to save allies who’ve been pinned/grabbed by specials. My suggest is you change his leap to also have a ground slam effect that knocks back nearby enemies and frees pinned allies. Furthermore, the Slayer should have shield breaking and armor penetration with BOTH light and heavy attacks.

Veteran Ranger - Is in a good place especially since he provides 25% chance to spawn health potion on special kill and 10% ammo gained from special kills. Smoke Bomb seems only work 50% of the time and needs some debugging.

SALTZPIRE

Witch Hunter Captain - Fills a role as a sub-optimal melee/ranged dps class and his Career Ability is useful, however, he is still heavily outclassed by Kerillian / Sienna. I suggest increasing the crit % from his career ability and increasing the duration.

Bounty Hunter - if Kerillian and Sienna are equal in damage / kill potential, the Bounty Hunter is right beneath them. Though he’s sub-optimal, his Career Ability does a decent amount of damage to bosses. If combined with crit / strength potion and used on a target’s head, it’s pretty devestating. I’d suggest slightly reducing the cooldown period but overall isn’t bad. Also I think he should highlight all special enemies within a decent range so his allies knows what’s around them.

Zealot - Among the 3 weakest classes as he doesn’t bring anything to the party that someone else already does better. I feel as though should have a talent that grants Shield Breaking and grant Armor Penetration on both light and heavy attacks to allow for him to better manage Storm Skaven and Shielded targets. This would make him a useful party member rather than mediocre dps.

SIENNA

Battle Wizard - I never see anyone use this class beyond low level recruit. Tranquility should be buffed to only require 4 seconds to activate and should have it’s effectiveness slightly increased.

Pyromancer - Is in a good place

Unchained - I feel as though her Living Bomb trait isn’t all that strong. The most I ever see it used for is to reset heat overcharge and to knockback enemies when surrounded. I think buffing the increased bonus damage with high overcharge would make it more appealing.

It does feel as though the game was nerfed with almost no consideration to the people who weren’t already level 30. Recruit doesn’t feel like recruit at level 1, there’s no casual play early on. Fat Shark devs need to carefully consider the changes they make because it does seem like most of the changes during the release overhaul pushed players away. As someone who’s a hardcore player, I understand the need to cater to casuals (i.e. recruit difficulty) and I really enjoy playing Champion / Legend, but in its current state, there’s almost no point in min/maxing your build which was an aspect I really enjoyed about V2 > V1. Please consider what I’ve written because, though balance is important, this isn’t a PVP game so heavily nerfing characters isn’t going to be as well received by the community.

Every character should FEEL powerful in their own right. Quit nerfing careers and consider buffing the weaker ones. Even by just scrolling through game lobby, you can tell which classes are the most popular because some careers are just so weak and useless. In its current state, if I’m attempting to play Legend and I see a Shade or a Slayer, I just disband and look elsewhere. Every character should be viable. Unfortunately, that is currently not the case.

7 Likes

Lots of good points here IMHO.

I’m just putting it out here for the sake of feedback - everyone constantly seems to crap on the battle wizard, but I’m enjoying that class greatly, in fact, that’s the only one I play from Sienna’s options.
Also I’m sad that the Unchained feels high risk - low reward.

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At champion/Elite the super low F ability of pyromancer which mostly one-shot chaos warriors and can snipe multiplie specials in one go, while reseting heat to 0 just flatout outclass battle wizard, imo the amounts of time im not casting for 8seconds are so rare, that the 40seconds pyro ult seems flat-out OP by comparion.
pyromancer is the only sienna character that can consistently hit upwards of 7000dmg pr.round

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I have no idea why it’s so rare to not cast for 8 seconds, maybe Sienna players pick her because they’re not that good at melee combat? Tranquility always works for me between fights.
I guess Pyro might be better (doesn’t work that well for me) but BW is not bad by any means I think.

So i moslty played saltz as bounty hunter and bardin as slayer now. Both nearly 30 and i did a lot of champion.
Here is the thing. When i play bounty hunter with falcion and using brace of pistols(with ammo gain on crit) or something als as ranged I do not get the feeling that slayer is a far better melee option. I am able to kill quickly with melee and ranged with never the risk to always go into melee combat whereas as slayer I am forced to be a huge risk for the team.
The talent which lowers the damage taken for slayer seems to be pretty mandatory for the higher difficulties because you will always get 1-2 hits from somewhere while jumping or landing because something didnt get staggered or you didnt block all the time while flying.
Further it is very weird that twin axes light attack hits 1 enemy and falcion 2!
I dont know what you think but that makes no sense for a melee focused class to be equaly strong or even weaker than a ranged focused class.

This was just a comparison for 2 weapons for these classes.

Battle Wizard isn’t useless, but I’d say it’s outclassed by Pyromancer in every aspect. The crit % at high overcharge doesn’t feel high enough to rely on being a damage booster and being able to spam fire spells with a short CD for flaming skull and the overall power of flaming skull tends to outweigh battle wizard IMO.

Sienna has some of the worst weapons in terms of overall melee combat. While using melee is an option, it seems more like a last resort since her ranged combat is where she shines the brightest.

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I don’t think the bounty hunter is a ranged focused class. I think it functions really well as a hybrid melee/ranged class. However, I do agree that the Slayer needs a lot of rework and balance. I’ve never seen a slayer outperform any other dps class in melee kills, total kills, damage, damage to bosses, or special kills. He’s This is why I’ve listed him as one of the 3 weakest career options in the game. He should be like the enemy berzerkers. He should have loads of stagger potential and guard break to help not only manage Stormskaven (which is a huge portion of enemy population on legend) but also to make him a viable option in general.

The Bounty Hunter is definitely a ranged specialization. It is just more obvious for him that ranged specs are still intended to use their melee weapons, too.
For the suggestions in the OP most are good, but:

  1. Handmaiden - I don’t know about any bleeddamage specific to that spec. Explain please? Edit: The talented ulti has a dot aparently. Given that it is a dot i never really noticed it, when other people played her. However that talent seems to give the ulti a real purpose, which appears to be weak otherwise. Maybe add damage to the base ulti and let the talent increase it a bit. That would also give the cooldownreduction talent a better purpose.
  2. Shade - Has high damage potential to kill bosses and can perform on the same level as Handmaiden IMO
  3. Foot Knight - Has a damagereduction aura, which is as useful as Ironbreaker ulti over the course of a mission. Ironbreaker however is too tanky by himself. His ability to cmpletely absorb any damage every 13 seconds should be nerfed. 30 seconds and 20 seconds traited or something like that.
  4. Huntsman - infinite piercing is exactly what is wrong with Legend. Being able to cleave through giant swarms takes away any threat of swarms. The ulti should increase damage more, especially against bosses. Give him some of his old strength back.
  5. Slayer - The ulti has a knockback effect, but it is super small. Buffing the aoe of this and adding a mediocre basedamage could help for sure. The light attacks of the dualaxes are armorpiercing already. Giving them shieldbreaking would be really strong, maybe too strong.
  6. Veteran Ranger’s Battle Brew talent no longer spawns healthpotions, but bombs instead, which is ok, as they are still super strong in Legend. Smoke bomb works fine for me. Enemies already in their attackanimation might still hit you.
  7. Bounty Hunter - Is perfectly fine how it is. His ulti cooldown is okay. You should have to think about using your ulti and not spam it on cooldown. Highlighting all enemies just makes the game easier and automates the gameplay, NO.
  8. Zealot - Maybe not as a talent, but armorpen/shieldbreaking could be included in his ulti.
  9. Sienna - Pyromancer’s ulti is gamebreaking. It can hit enemies not even in sight and oneshot Chaoswarriors on Legend. It has a low cooldown and vents the overcharge. This is the reason why you rarely see other specs. The ulti needs to either get a way longer cooldown or deal less damage and vent less.
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Her active cause bleed on those she passes through. At higher difficulty not that powerful, but on veteran it kills specials and stormvermin (at a capped 400 HeroPower) after a couple of seconds.

I feel like some of the suggestions are fair and some show a complete and total lack of knowledge in the release state of the classes. I don’t feel the OP is coming from an informed point of view but instead speculating based on some classes they’ve played after release and others they definitely have not.

I didn’t know that, just assumed it is direct damage. Just because it can kill Stormvermin or specials on veteran, doesn’t mean it should do the same on higher difficulties, though.
Maybe adding damage to the base ulti and letting the talent increase it a bit would be a good change. The cooldownreduction talent would also become more useful.

the ability still says it’s health potions, so either the description wasn’t updated or the bombs was an oops.

Yes the description is wrong at the moment. Playing on legend there were so incredible many bombs, that i believe health potions would be completely broken op. Lvl 15 Ranger talents still are incredible strong anyway.

it could be that the description is in fact correct but that the ability got broken due to broken code, basically the same reason waystalker level 15 talents are broken right now and not working as intended. No way to know for sure which it is without developer confirmation.

I would disagree. The Bounty Hunter is definitely a ranged/melee hybrid. Compare him to Sienna’s Pyromancer with a bolt staff or Kerillian’s Waystalker with a swift bow. I could do roughly 8k damage on either of those classes and have almost 0 melee kills. In fact I was looking through my screenshots and I ended my last Legend on Sienna with 7.8k damage, 13 melee kills, and 252 ranged kills. Bounty hunter CANNOT do that. He is absolutely a hybrid. He doesn’t have enough ammo to support being just a ranged class.

  1. Handmaiden (you agreed with me so moot)
  2. Shade - overall damage output isn’t greater than Handmaiden and is far weaker than Waystalker even on boss fights but with even less survivability. I’ve tested this on at least 3 different occasions and checked the stats at the end and it wasn’t enough to maker her a viable class.
  3. Foot Knight - the damage reduction doesn’t do enough to increase the number of attacks it would take to kill you on Legend or even Champion in most cases beyond a slave rat hit which is why I think it should be improved.
  4. Huntsman - Infinite Piercing on one attack isn’t game breaking. It just means he can take his time to line up a shot against specific targets and be useful. In his current state, I would not take a huntsman over a Mercenary on Legend under any circumstances.
  5. Slayer - The negligible knockback of the leap has 0 impact on gameplay which is why it should be increased to be similar to Kruber and Bardin’s abilities in terms of knockback power. Shield breaking on light attacks might be game breaking but there are work arounds. Maybe you have to target the creature for it to apply or maybe apply it to heavy attacks. Either way, I won’t be playing Legend with any Slayers in it’s current state and it needs a complete overhaul.
  6. Veteran Ranger - It’s been so long since I’ve seen a Vet Ranger so I was unaware of the change. Either way, bomb spam is almost just as strong.
  7. Bounty Hunter - The strongest thing about him is the Volley Crossbow. I don’t think the highlight should be free but I do think he should have some way of alerting his team to specials in a way unique to him. Maybe targeting one targets multiple in an area?
  8. Zealot - I like your alternative suggestion.
  9. Sienna - I wouldn’t say her ulti is game breaking. I’ve only ever seen it kill one Chaos Warrior at a time. A Chaos Patrol still wrecks a team and her ulti is only good enough to kill 1 of maybe 4 or 5 Chaos Warriors. Add in a horde and you don’t even notice its power. I’ve never seen her ulti used in a way that made Legend seem like easy content. Furthermore, the Bounty Hunter’s ult will oneshot a Chaos Warrior with a headshot so the only real difference is that Sienna’s ult is hoaming.

Sienna’s ulti is stupid and op. I will not discuss that anymore, that is my very strong opinion. Having all ranged kills on Sienna is exactly what is wrong with her. Bounty Hunter Is the balanced example of how ranged classes should be right now. Not as weak as Huntsman, but not as ranged spammy as Sienna.
Shade could use a little help after playing her some more, but is not that much weaker than Handmaiden.

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sienna was mostly ranged kills in vermintide 1 as well… it’s her gimmick… she almost always dominated ranged kills back then, i don’t see why they should change that now.

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You enjoying something does not make it good. I for example enjoy Slayer, but let’s be honest. He is very weak compared to other heroes. Especially in higher difficulties. Since ranged is king, Slayer falls short of being a peon.

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