Legend is the new Recruit

I used to have a bunch of official guide books for old play station classics like Jak and Daxter, loved those things to death. They weren’t just neat for like, getting background lore and concept art but they actually provided an in-depth guide for everything so I wasn’t missing some niche thing (within reason, obvs they didn’t tell you about unintended cheese :stuck_out_tongue:).

Some games nowadays provide a digital equivalent via lore books or a codex of some sort that’s accessible either from the hub level or menu. Fatshark could stand to benefit a lot adding such a thing to the keep…it’s not like we’re short on space

I don’t wanna be like a backseat driver for FS or some sort of detractor but this stuff is just really basic stuff that’s been present in video games since the 90s

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Man that’s a great idea, having some kind of reference tome that gives a full breakdown of all game mechanics players can access.

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Yo I still want a stagger breakpoint calculator so bad :cry: Would save me a hell of a lot of time testing in modded. Again the crux of it to me is how much the game just wastes players’ time.

Heck there’s armory and bestiary doing a lot of the work for them. They just need to incorporate them and flesh them out a bit more. If they’re worried about immersion give us custom dummies we can set the difficulty and armour type for then give us an indicator when we’ve “killed” them or when we’ve successfully staggered them. There’s so much they could do with this but instead they’ve settled for just giving us no info at all in the vain hopes the player base won’t figure out a meta for themselves.

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The idea of a library room where more detailed gameplay Information appear (with more information appearing the more Tomes you collect) has been made before.

But this isn’t as easy as it sounds. At which point do you draw the line? What is basic information and what is something to complex to write out in words?

Lastly, it is a game philosphy question. In my opinion the necessary information for playing Vermintide is present in the game. The rest is being rewarded for experimentation. We can discuss about the escessiveness of needed testing to reach some conclusions, yea. But something like a dps or breaking point calculator should not be part of the official game in any form, in my opinion.

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I’m a compendium of good suggestions that’ll probably never get added to the game

the fact we need to use mods to get stats on weapons and enemies (armory and bestiary mods) and then use a community built calculator for our stats is kinda just embarrassing for a game made in this day and age

Games should get more comprehensive over time, not start lacking basic features from 20 years ago…it’s like if the next generation of cars came without airbags so we had to build our own

I would disagree with this, I shouldn’t need a mod or community resource to know what mass modifiers and such my weapon has. I’m all for “feeling things out” but there comes a point where things are just too unknown and nebulous especially given that the in-game tools such as training dummies are legitimately pretty useless given that they don’t state anywhere in-game that they use Chaos/Infantry as their armor type and we don’t have any in-game resource on enemy health values. Warframe (which is imo an extremely flawed game) at the very least gives us a comprehensive testing ground

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Considering in the 80s they had a hotline where you could call a Game Counselor if you were stuck on a level.

Seems like we’re going backwards in time.

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I agree it shouldn’t have all kinds of absolute minutae in there, but knowing that WHC Ult will knock an assassin off a player seems to be the kind of knowledge lacking in so many players, and I have been playing with people that didn’t know how to push-stab… at Legend.

But then again, push stab isn’t discussed anywhere in-game and it’s kindof a big part of the toolkit for a couple of weapons.

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Then we should start there. I agree that the testing tools should be defined and fully functional.

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Neither is tagging enemies… Something that should have been in the prologue.

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The amount of work put into mining info and the many hours cumulatively spent in modded realm suggests very strongly to the contrary to me. We all understand their philosophy but it is clearly at odds with what most people seem to actually want. There’s a point where you just can’t justify wasting this much player time with game philosophy. If there were a much better way to experiment, as you put it, without having to go into modded realm then I’d be inclined to agree with you, hence my suggestion of expanding on the dummies.

At least I do agree a full in integrated breakpoint calculator would be too far.

Edit: By the time I posted this there’d already been a back and forth on exactly this lol. I agree a more in depth in game testing ground would be preferable to spreadsheets.

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yeah I get that games need a philosophy but I mean at this point we’re at a crossroads where Fatshark is like “an elf is a featherless biped” so we show up with a Bardin and throw him into the air screaming “BEHOLD AN ELF”

y’know…to bring a classical philo reference into it

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I just don’t get how we got to this point.

80s - developers notice kids are getting frustrated with games so they hire Game Counselors they can call to help them

90s thru early 2000s - developers can’t keep up with the hotline traffic so decided to make paper game guides to assist players with all the tools they need to learn how to play the game

Today - developers releasing unfinished games and be like GOOD LUCK and unpaid community members have to make guides

Where did it all go wrong?

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Well, then you have to write faster :stuck_out_tongue: I mean it can’t be that complicated to get some better testing grounds. Just let Olesya summon an illusion for testing purposes (probably better without her bickering or the community will go mad).

Generally, there are also different ways how you get people to learn something new. In L4D for example different mechanics like stopping a Hunter jumping you, have been covered by achievements. So we don’t necessarily need some in-game guides (although a library would be neat). Just introduce Okri’s challenges for covering certain actions like: Perform five push-stabs in a row. So to avoid people doing them by coincidence. Will not explain the mechanic but it will make people curious.

Ideally, we get as mentioned above better testing grounds in form of illusions or we get a new map “Cousin Okri’s Training Grounds” where you can choose different courses at the beginning.

Well, back then it was a way to make money. Nowadays, they would have to compete with free information from community members. So why not let it make them completely anyway?

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Expanded tutorial mode

I like it.

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They only made money with the paper guides. For the Game Counselors, they had to pay them for their time lol

Those paper guides were out before the game released. So there wasn’t any competitions back then. Maybe developers today can’t make guides for their games because there’s been a recent trend of rushing unfinished games into the market.

Can’t make a guide to an unfinished game.

I completely understand the frustration. I can react like this aswell, but once my initial emotional reaction is over and i start to think rationally, i can see the mistakes i made or things i could of done better.

Some players do die more from the infamous skaven rat more, then when there is a boss + horde + specials. I’m sure everyone had this happen to them, where you fight a little group of skavens and mis timed an attack an died. I don’t know what it is, might be that when there is not alot of enemies, players start to pay less attention. Happens to me sometimes.

The issue of bad fighting places or your team not listening to voice commands Will always exist. Some things i try is to use voice commands first, while moving or already standing where i would like to stand. But if i see my team doesn’t react then i go join them and try to make the best of it. When i see it won’t work out i premtively use a bomb or potion.

Another thing is when players start to split, maybe because they are tunnel vissioning on enemies and don’t pay attention to their team (which happens to everyone sometimes), i try to notice that and move with them, or protect their back, without putting myself in too much danger ofcourse. It’s not always worth it to go help someone very split if you have a big chance to die yourself. Pushing as a team is best, but that is difficult in qp.

Basically what i’m trying to say, is that if you are or think that you are the better player in the group, try and see if people follow you, if they don’t, you follow them and try to make the best of the situations you get put in. Knowing priorities and such are important aswell. Another thing is that if i notice my team not being the best, and they are all on shade/bh/huntsman etc, i try to go on a support/dps career, so i can support my teammates and win, rather then Force a squishy class thats more difficult to help my team with if every one of them already is dps. So identify what your team lacks and try and pick a career that fills it. For example, mercenary is a great ‘qp carry’ career. Except if everyone is tank, then go a shade for example.

I know it’s annoying, and sometimes you just wanna play what you like in qp, and sometimes playing what you want can work in bad teams. But basically try and carry them and support them, try not to be arrogant and make it sound like you are above everyone else, if your entire team goes to that spot and doesn’t want to move, fight with them, etc.

( Not implying you don’t do those things, just some tips)

Also for some players, fighting a horde is pretty overwhelming. So don’t be to harsh and the secret to playing quickplay is: lower your expectations.
If you have been playing with a certain type of players alot you start to except basic things, but we have to remember not everyone knows these things, and that we all started from somewhere.

Also changing the mindset and being more interested in the moment and not about winning will help reduce getting mad quickly, if you are someone who leaves quickly. (This doesn’t mean you cannot get annoyed)

Hope some of these help. If you are interested in doing higher level content, try and find premade groups on existing discords/reddit etc

Also touching on this topic in general.

Improving the wiki can be a great starting point. Yes some basic things should be in the game, but being able to reliably fall back on the wiki would be great for new players.

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Making a guide for such a complex game is relatively simple, a one-time task.
But keeping it up to date with all the patches and changes during its lifetime - is increasing the time & resources needed exponentially. That’s the difference between 80-90s games, and now - thanks to internet the development (‘patching’) of released games can continue.

Just a speculation (i’m noob in programming): if they wrote game code with very good organization and structure, with an idea of a guide in mind beforehand, and they continue that same principles - then it wouldn’t be hard to pull info each time to update a guide. Otherwise it would require a lot of manual labor each time a big update hits, rechecking stuff…

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The Wiki is being worked on by a team of community members last I checked so hopefully it’s only gonna get from here on. All in all community made resources for verm have been a massive boon and very well done

I just don’t think there’s much excuse for the game being as bare-bones as it is in this regard though.

the armory mod is actually decently solid in this regard, it pulls directly from the game code

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Oh there is? Thats good to hear.

Fatshark could support those working on it though (if they aren’t yet), this would probably be cheaper then letting someone do it in the company, while making the community happy.

And yes, there aren’t any excuses. It has been mentioned alot though to have some improved tutorial/dummies/ lore book/mechanics book. Etc. Lets hope its on their list

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hey man I have first dibbs if Fatshark is actually gonna start paying us community contributers :^)

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