Yeah, the strongest weapons that are good in everything and are powerful. You say they’re balanced. I say they’re not. Is that not so?
And it’s because of weapons and careers. People don’t fail in lower difficulties because they didn’t have strong enough loadouts, but because they haven’t learned how to dodge, position, move etc. Once you have that down, you can play C3O with the most meta loadouts and crush it. Hell, people failed Legend runs with old BW, and according to you that’d be a sign that it’s not overpowered?
But we can’t say that they are good in everything… it’s just your subjective opinion. I have a different opinion (subjective too, obviously) and I wrote, for example, what are Exe Sword’s disadvantages and why it’s not good in everything.
Where is the truth? None can say it.
I was only saying that Vermintide isn’t the case where, for example with Exe Sword, you can instakill everything in highest contents.
It is my subjective opinion, but a weapon doesn’t also have to be good at everything to be overpowered and need tweaking. Yes billhook doesn’t have the crowd control of a shield, but it’s still overpowered because its utility and everything else is so overwhelmingly good that it negates any possible weakness it may have. You think it’s fine for it to have 99 dodge count, great single target damage, good horde clear and huge utility with it’s special attack, capable of incapacitating several chaos warriors at a time with extreme speed? Just that special attack should be changed in how it functions, it shouldn’t work like that at all since it negates a very strong enemy in an anti-fun way and by itself shouldn’t exist, even regardless of whether the weapon is OP or not. Same with how Huntsman could disintegrate bosses with handgun, even if he did nothing else, that should still be changed. Or how about sword&dagger and dual daggers. They don’t need good blocking, because their dodge is so overwhelmingly good, or how they have amazing DPS output, that pairing it with any sort of crowd control option suddenly disintegrates everything. If a weapon is better than a weapon that is already capable and performs well at any other difficulty, then wouldn’t that first weapon be overpowered?
Yeah and my point still stands. In lower difficulties career abilities and weapon loadouts make next to no impact, because people struggle with the basics of the game. You could give them old BW and they’d still die, meanwhile old BW would completely negate any sort of challenge in the hands of a player who has learned the basics. FoW Cata, modded games, hypertwitch etc. All these are meant to be difficulty challenges meant for the best, but it’s not a good look when just above average players can complete them.
Never said that a weapon can be over power only if it’s good at everything.
For example, when I judge Billhook, I do NOT think “Can it do everything? No? So it’s 100% not over power”…
I compare it with the other good weapons.
Is it more or less strong like the other “pure dps” weapons (like S&S and S&D)? Imho, yep.
Can it control/stagger an horde like “specialized in that sector” weapons can do (shields, 2H Hammer, Flail, etc etc)? Imho, nope.
Has it large sweeps to easily “cover” the entire horde (like Exe or 2H Sword)? Imho, nope.
Now, I don’t want to go off topic and start to talk about Billhook… it’s an example to explain my “mental processes” and to explain that yep, I agree with you: a specialized weapon can be over power (it’s not mandatorily be good at everything)… but, seeing current Vermintide balance, I think that the strongest weapons are the balanced ones and that we must buff the bad ones (for this reason I love Full Weapons Rebalance mod).
And my point is that, currently, there aren’t careers/weapons that (even if used by strong players) are capable to negate the challenge.
I agree that discussion between us is pointless, however there are some points which NEED to be adressed.
This is BS and you know it. Look the poll, the highest participation number is 17. SEVENTEEN. There is no great majority. It is a work by a few. A lot of work. And good work although i dont agree with the result. But it is still the work of a minority and FS is aware of that. Several people have already mentioned that they disagree with the result.
Nobody is speaking about nerfing half the game. I am speaking about nerfing about 5-10 weapons while buffing 5-10 weapons from a total of 42. You know, actually balancing. Also, the weaknesses you list are irrelevant because they fade in comparison to the strengths. Axe&Falchion has received Dodge upgrade despite being one of the top picks on one of the weakest melee classes (BH). The weapon has no survivability issues, yet the survivabilty was buffed. Just an example.
And what I don’t understand is why would you advocate for buffing something like greatsword or 2h hammer? Both of these weapons are completely and fully usable in all difficulties. Greatsword and 2h hammer can be used up to C3O. These weapons have everything they need to be effective, any potential change should be directed towards making them more fun and engaging to use, not to buff them and make them stronger. So if they’re perfectly able and capable in these difficulties, then why should they be buffed? Because one weapon is apparently stronger than them? Why, so that these weapons can then be even stronger in difficulties that they already do fine in? Wouldn’t that be a sign that some of the other weapons perform too well?
I only said what I saw. From the poll and the comments under the thread, I have noticed that the majority loves the mod.
For me, already nerfing 10 weapons, 10 balanced weapons (obvly imho), it’s an absurdity and it would drag down the entire cast level.
“Half” it’s an exaggeration, of course, but I was not talking only about you… the same speech is easier about careers. I read under “nerf word” these careers: BH, Zealot, WHC, WS, Shade, Merc, IB, BW… more than half. Obviously by different people… for this reason mine is a general speech.
p.s: that A&F’s weakenesses are irrilevant, it’s a subjective opinion.
Totally nope (even because, for example, Exe Sword hasn’t a better crowd control than 2H Hammer).
I think they need a small buff because they have some “inaccuracies” that ruin their niches.
2H Hammer is the easiest example: it’s meant to stagger and kill armors. About armors, it does its work. None problem.
About stagger, there is a problem: when you are surrounded, so when you really need to create space (remember: 2H Hammer’s work), you can’t use it because heavy attacks are too slow… but, at the same time, they must be slow.
For this reason 2H Hammer needs (like Full Weapons Rebalance did) a push-attack capable to create space.
Again: it’s just to explain my idea. I’m NOT saying “2H Hammer is bad because Exe Sword is better” (and already now, imho, it’s not better)… but simply because there is something that “breaks” its niche/work. A situation where it should be strong (seeing its style), but where instead it fails
So you’re saying that 2h hammer can’t save you when you’re completely alone and fully surrounded by a big mixed horde with chaff and elite enemies and you’re backed into a corner? I dunno man, I don’t think 2h hammer should save you from that situation. And even in such a situation, you can use abilities or consumables to get you going, so it’s not even a good example. The only thing you’re saying is that 2h hammer by itself, with nothing else, couldn’t save you from such an extreme situation.
17 is NOT a majority. And as it has been discussed in other threads already. People not agreeing with the power baseline completely skipped the mod. Cataclysm has at least several dozen active players and from these 17!! have polled. This isn’t even discussable or subjective. We have not heard from the majority. Mostly those in favour showed up in that discussion. It is like going to a band concert and saying: “I notice the majority likes this band.” Yea, unsurprising and the statement is correct. However, the people are not representive for the total.
I accept and welcome the work of team America. I acknowledge their affort. And discussion in any form is important.
However, I completely reject this over-agressive push of the mod towards FS showcasing the results as unconditional final holy salvation. I will make sure FS knows that there is a large part of players we haven’t heard of (although I’m very very sure they know anyway).
And for me not toning down 10 overperforming weapons is ridiculous. It is an absurdity that we create a power base line where the majority of weapons has no significant weakness and can counter most situations on the god damn highest difficulty.
Sigh. Yea yea, agree to disagree … bla bla. Cya in the great forum balance fight 2020/2021 -_-
This is still going! I’m impressed by the passion everyone here has for the game. Honestly, I think it’s a sign that we all care about it, and that’s great.
Every time you exaggerate my words. I never said that. Not even shields can save you from that situation. But an half way? Should 2H Hammer help in those situations, not so critic like you described, but where you are still surrounded (and I never said alone)? Yep, it should be staggering weapons’ duty. Make space. My opinion. And this is super off topic… could we stop us?
Happy people >>> (many times “>”) angry people. This is the objective fact… the rest are just words. We can’t know if “people who hated the mod” just ignored it (in this case, their fault… and anyway, usually, angry people are the louder ones) or if they are so few that we can’t even hear them.
And it’s not only the poll… there is the thread: so many likes, positive comments, views… and even the few “comments AGAINST” are like “X weapon has been over-buffed, but in general the mod is good”.
This is the point! And for this reason I want avoid this kind of discussion… when two opinions are so different, we can just write them, one time or two (to let to developers know)… go beyond would be useless.
I could continue saying “But I wrote objective facts that show how those weapons aren’t op and they can’t do everything”… and you would continue “Those facts aren’t objctive” etc etc.
I think that Full Weapon Rebalance has been a success, and I love it.
Forums are just a virtual place where a person posts something (an opinion, a mod, a video) and the others react… Positively or negatively… Then moderators see where the majority is.
Let’s not make it more complicated than should be… Also because, following Adelion reasoning, untill now none feedback would have been valid.
As an aside I appreciate the praise for Full Weapon Rebalance
anyway there’s a degree of objective measures that can be taken to determine how balanced weapons are relative to each other but there will always be subjectivity and it’s difficult to quantify without polling, testing and the like.
Because that’s the only situation where you couldn’t get out with 2h hammer. Otherwise, what on earth are you on about man? If you’re just surrounded by a couple dozen horde enemies and a few elites mixed in, well then just dodge a bit, do some pushes, weave in some heavies, bada bing bada boom and you’re out and in a good position to spam heavies. Literally what’s the issue? What do you mean you couldn’t get out? What do you mean 2h hammer is too slow and weak? What do you mean it needs a buff in that regard? And if you’re not alone then that’s literally even worse. Like, mate, abilities exist for a reason, other people can help you stagger and CC, other people can use abilities and push too. You’re literally complaining that 2h hammer doesn’t make you invincible when you’re surrounded by enemies and alone with no abilities to use or consumables. What specific situation are you actually talking about then?
Anyway, I repeat: this is off topic and I don’t want to start another long discussion… simply I feel that 2H Hammer is great to stagger when the game goes well… but, when the team is under pressure and your mates rely (mainly) on that guy with a staggering weapon, 2H Hammer suffers a little bit too much since (under pressure) it’s not always possible charge the slow heavy attack… while, a staggering weapon, should cover those situations.
Push are pretty average too… 3 stamina, medium push, standard angle.
Moreover I don’t want a huge buff… just a push-attack with more stagger.
Frankly I’ve read some nasty stuff about Cata and I don’t really want to go in there:)
I was really happy with Legend’s difficulty right after the beastmen patch hit - it was pretty brutal, the end hold your ground events could easily overwhelm you if you let your guard down - that’s really cool imo.
I think that in the following patches the devs tuned it down a bit and it made me a bit sad.
Also I host pugs 99% of the times, so cata is a bit over my skill level, unlike legend which i can run solo pretty much consistently.
I’d disagree a bit: I think that these weapons are pretty balanced still.
AFAIK,
DD has short range, so unless you’re really careful you might get a mouthful of steel before you shiv anyone.
S&D got bleed only on dagger strikes. Besides I think that bleed is mostly a flavour mechanics, similar to burn. I’m not aware of any ways to really make a bleed build. With daggers you totally kill stuff with powerful headshots/backstabs. IMHO if you rely on bleed to finish off stuff you’re not doing it entirely right… or you’re just a sadist:)
Only S&D has crit bonus on all attacks, daggers’ heavy attack is unaffected. Frankly I’d not use S&D if it didn’t have the bonus.
Both these weapons’ major downside is that they pretty much suck against armour (DD less so cause of fast and powerful heavy attack) - consistent headshots are not that easy to pull off when horde is nibbling your sweet elf bum.
Besides, do we still have dodge count? I kinda lost the feel of having “bad” dodges some time ago.
