Inferno Force Staff: The Design Problem

Yes, this is another thread complaining about the Inferno Force Staff and Psyker nonsense. However, this is going to be a fairly constructive one. In this, I am going to perform an in-depth analysis of the problems the weapons design causes, and put forth a practical solution that maintains the fantasy and flavor of the weapon, in a form that is much healthier for the game space. To start, let’s begin with:

The Design

The design of the Inferno Force Staff is a legitimately interesting one. It’s a close-range horde clear weapon that trades the ability to efficiently deal with distant threats for very efficiently handling large volumes of weak melee enemies. It’s a powerful weapon that fills a specific, relatively unique role in Psyker’s kit. The only other parts of the kit that comes close is Assail, but Assail is both mid-range and comparatively limited in its number of targets, and the Force Greatsword’s special attack, but the Moonlight Force Greatsword has far more limited availability and usage. In Psyker’s kit, Inferno Force Staff is the reliable, close-in horde clear weapon that can be used at nearly any time and in nearly any scenario, and with the right build, taking the various Warpfire synergy talents as well as Brain Rupture and Kinetic Flayer to augment the Psyker’s damage into elite targets, it can do pretty respectable damage to everything within its 15 meter range.

In the overall game space, the Inferno Force Staff slots very neatly into the “Will No One Rid Me of These Turbulent Poxwalkers?” role, alongside the Skitarii’s Purgator Servo-Skull, Zealot’s Purgation Flamer and Immolation Grenade, Ogryn’s Rumbler, and probably a few more I can’t think of off-hand. And it fills that role exceptionally well.

The Problem

The problem with the Inferno Force Staff is that it fills this role too well. Its ability to hit quite literally every enemy within its cone simultaneously leads to absurd clear times, which when paired with its nature as a Psyker staff, meaning the only limits on using it are Peril, and you end up with a weapon that can be fired nearly infinitely that can simultaneously kill an arbitary number of chaff enemies in the highest difficulties of the game in a handful of seconds. To illustrate the point, here’s a couple examples of what the Inferno Force Staff can do in Havoc 40, the highest possible difficulty:

As you can see, it takes less than 5 seconds for the Psyker to completely erase 100 poxwalkers, or 60 poxwalkers that have been seeded with Maulers, Ragers, and a Crusher.

Why Is This A Problem?

The Fun Problem

On paper, this seems great. A Psyker player can just run an Inferno Force Staff, delete every horde the team runs across and everyone carries on to great success, right?

And you wouldn’t be wrong there; it does, in fact, make the mission much easier to succeed at. But that’s not the only metric by which to judge game design.

For example, imagine you are an Ogryn, and you’re running the Power Maul because you really like hitting things really hard and watching them explode. A horde of enemies comes screaming out of a door way, and you get excited. Oh boy, it’s time to blow up that horde and start having some fun. So you hit the special button, your Ogryn pushes the button, and you wind up to hit that horde like the Fist of God Himself, and the instant before your weapon reaches the first enemy, the entire horde just flops over dead. Your weapon never explodes, you don’t do any damage, you don’t get any feedback. All you get is limply slapping a corpse or two around, assuming you even have corpse ragdolls enabled.

This is not fun.

In fact, it’s the antithesis of fun. It actively creates negative feedback loops, denying the visceral catharsis that the game’s core mechanics can and generally do provide, and utterly ruins the experience when playing alongside someone using the weapon.

At its core, the issue is that Inferno Force Staff is a weapon with infinite resource that can hit every enemy at once, removing other players’ ability to engage with the game in a number of meaningful ways, while also invalidating a number of potential builds that could be used to confront the problem of chaff enemies. After all, why would you need a Zealot with Immolation Grenades, or the Skitarii with a Purgator Servo-Skull, or so on, when the Psyker can just delete the horde faster than they can, for free, every time?

The Balance Problem

In addition, there is the balance consideration as well. Most weapons in darktide have a limited capacity to engage with enemies. Every attack in the game from these weapons has a “cleave” limit, a maximum amount of “hitmass” it can penetrate and continue to hit more targets. A sword can only go through so many poxwalkers, a bullet can only go through so many shooters, etc, etc. What that means is that the capacity of a player using those weapons to deal damage has an upper limit. If I were to use an attack that can only hit 3 poxwalkers for 200 damage each, it doesn’t matter if there’s 3, 5, or 200 poxwalkers. I’m still only doing 600 damage per swing, no matter how large or dense the enemy force is. There is a logarithmic scaling in place; as enemy density increases, player output approaches a fixed upper limit and cannot exceed that.

Some weapons, however, do not have this limitation. Flamers (such as the Inferno Force Staff) and explosives are the primary examples, where they do damage to every enemy in their area of effect, regardless of how many enemies there are. This means that there is no upper limit on player capacity. A flamer attack that does 200 damage does 600 damage when there’s only 3 poxwalkers, but it does 40,000 damage when there’s 200 poxwalkers. It’s linear scaling with density in this case; the more enemies there are, the more damage you do, with no upper bound or limit.

On its own, this is fine; area weapons are good at killing lots of things. But this is not in a vacuum. Darktide primarily drives difficulty through increasing enemy density. In higher difficulties, there are more and more enemies in the same space, each with greater and greater hitmass, limiting the capacity of most “normal” weapons even further. But weapons with infinite cleave don’t have this issue. They continue to scale to infinity, making the gap between the regular weapons and the infinite cleave weapons even larger.

It’s at the point now where, even in Auric let alone high Havoc ranks, infinite cleave weapons like the Inferno Force Staff and Rumbler are widely considered far and away the most powerful weapons in the game, because they scale with density in a way nothing else does, and the very thing that’s supposed to make the game harder makes these weapons better.

The Solution

The solution to the problem of the Inferno Force Staff is a relatively simple one. If the core of the issue is that the Psyker is able to kill everything before other players can interact with it and do infinite damage as long as there’s enemies to damage, simply limit how many enemies the Inferno Force Staff is able to hit at any given time. This doesn’t have to be a low number, in fact it should probably be fairly high, but there should be a limit, such that the Inferno Force Staff, and other infinite cleave weapons really, have the same sort of logarithmic scaling as every “normal” weapon in the game.

To that end, I propose adding a hit mass limitation. The exact details are difficult to explain without first establishing how the Inferno Force Staff functions however, so with that:

How Inferno Force Staff Works

The Inferno Force Staff operates in two major ways.

  1. action_shoot_flame (aka, Left Click)
    When fired, this triggers an ActionFlamerGasBurst action. The ActionFlamerGasBurst action sends out 8 raycasts (raycasts for those unfamiliar are just invisible lines in the game world) that extend in a semi-random cone around the player’s crosshairs until they collide with something that has no health (aka, level geometry). Every enemy whose hitbox intersects with one or more of these raycasts is then flagged as “hit” by the burst and suffers the relevant effects. The result from the player’s perspective is a burst of flame in a frontal cone that does low direct damage but relatively high stagger and applies a stack of the warpfire dot effect to everything in front of them.

  2. action_shoot_charged_flame (aka, Channeled)
    When fired after charging up with the right click, an ActionFlamerGas action is triggered instead. The ActionFlamerGas action works similarly to the ActionFlamerGasBurst but, as the name implies, it is not a singular burst. When activated, ActionFlamerGas will send out the same 8 raycasts every physics frame, (aka, every 0.017s, or 1/60 of a second), and instead of dealing damage to these enemies, they are instead added to a “targets hit” list. Every approximately 0.3s (depending on stats and how long they’ve been targeted), there is a check and if an enemy on the “targets hit” list has been struck by at least one raycast for 33% of the raycasts they could have been hit by, the target is considered hit by the flame. This deals damage, applies warpfire, and so on, then escalates the target up a damage scale, meaning they will take more damage on the next check, if they are still being targeted. And every time an enemy fails to reach that 33% threshold, they move a step down the damage scale, being removed from the “targets hit” list if they were on the lowest damage step before hand. The end result from the player’s perspective is a channeled cone of flame that does more and more damage to an enemy the longer you keep that enemy in the cone.

How To Fix Inferno Force Staff

As mentioned, fixing the Inferno Force Staff really just comes down to adding hitmass limitations. To do that, all that’s required is going into ActionFlamerGasBurst and ActionFlamerGas to set those limits.

  1. ActionFlamerGasBurst
    This is the controller for the action_shoot_flame, triggered by simplying clicking the Left Mouse Button. In this, there is code for processing the raycasts and determining if a target has been hit by one, known as the _process_hit method. To add hitmass limitations, all we need to do is to track the total hitmass of all targets hit by the raycasts, and stopping the raycasts once the total hitmass reaches the limit. In practice, what that looks like is the _process_hit method being provided the total hitmass hit so far, adding the new target’s hitmass to that total, and then returning “yes, continue to hit more targets” or “no, stop hitting targets now” based on the new total.

  2. ActionFlamerGas
    This is the controller for action_shoot_charged_flame, triggered by holding Right Mouse Button to charge then holding Left Mouse Button to fire. As said above, this works very similarly to ActionFlamerGasBurst, right on down to the _process_hit method, and the fix is nearly identical there as well. The difference from ActionFlamerGasBurst is that here, we’re tracking the total hitmass for each individual physics frame. Every frame, the raycasts go out and hit up to the hitmass limit worth of enemies and add those targets to the “targets hit” list. Once the hitmass limit is reached, any further targets are ignored, as if they weren’t in the cone at all, and the hit effects are determined every approximately 0.3s accordingly.

Here are the previously shown examples with these changes, setting a hitmass limit of 24 on action_shoot_charged_flame:

As you can see, this significantly slows the horde clear potential, especially against mixed hordes with high hitmass enemies mixed into the chaff. This gives other players much more room to engage with the enemies and significantly reduces the gap between regular weapons and the infinite cleave weapons. The exact limit I set is probably not the correct one for the appropriate balance of the weapon, I deliberately set it a little on the low side to more clearly illustrate the impact of the change, but the concept is very appropriate, I feel.

The code for the changes I made is here, if anyone is curious. I used my mod Enginseer’s Workbench to apply it in the game and to set the hitmass limit values in the Inferno Force Staff’s weapon template:

flamer_limit_modification.txt (14.2 KB)

Thank you for your attention to this matter.

Fatshark should have probably done something like this years ago. Great idea and writeup tbh.

Shame you’ll soon be swarmed by an army of crutch users.

As stated at the end of this article I’m sure there would be a need to dial this in but I am strongly in favor of eliminating infinite cleave from the “delete the screen all game” stick. I like to play my video games and not have all my fun taken away by other players holding RMB+LMB+W for 45 minutes.

Impressive work by the way. Deserving of praise.

Personally, I think that powerful stagger should also be nerfed a bit.

Maybe the Darktide team should print this article out and stick it on every desk so they don’t forget.

How many more years do we have to keep giving the same feedback about Inferno before they’re satisfied?

Inferno needs a nerf, not a buff.

@FatsharkJulia

@FatsharkQuickpaw

My 2 cents is, infinite cleave is fine with a SHORT range weapon, and dots should be deadly to unarmored enemies.
If infinite cleave is problem then infinite mass hordes are a problem.
Problem is how GOOD soulblaze is against anything including carapace, when if its not rending then its perma 40% brittleness.

I repeat this point for years, fatshark has a direct knob for EVERY possible damage interaction in the game.
Normal soulblaze = 50% less flak dmg and 0 dmg against full carapace (so cruhser)
Talented soulblaze = soublaze deals normal dmg to flak and some dmg to carapace
Or
Idk how difficult would be to have 2 modes flamestaff, similar to needlegun where one mode adds soulblaze quickly (2-3x more stacks per tick than now) but in VERY SMALL CONE almost a melta.
Other mode would be dispersed and work like now but with idk 50% less stacks added.

Somehow the equivalent of Flamestorm staff from VT2 has been allowed to be way too good at everything, including melting elites. It also has considerable stagger / suppression.

It’s a one of those weapons which solve the whole game. It shouldn’t be a thing.

I feel like we also want to consider other sources of soulblaze stacks such as Perilous Combustion and Venting Shriek, both of which significantly contribute to the power of Inferno staff and other similarly soulblaze-focused builds.

To a lesser extend the Trauma/Voidblast staff can also generate soulblaze stacks with the right blessings, and with high crit and perilous combustion+venting shriek you can absolutely clear mixed hordes to an insane degree with those too.

Imo PC needs a max stacks cap, possibly a small range nerf, and the Venting Shriek talent node that applies up to 6 soulblaze stacks depending on peril should be entirely redesigned to not apply soulblaze stacks at all but increase the push/stagger/knockback effects power instead of doing damage.

Scriers Gaze also needs a redesign as it enables certain broken builds that don’t even rely on soulblaze.

I do think psyker should, thematically, be the top damage dealer, but to pull it off successfully should require player skill and risky at higher difficulties. But a meta bubble-inferno build is as safe and easy as it gets. Ultimately the issue isn’t so much the damage you can do, but how easy it is to pull off with certain builds.

Perilous Combustion was buffed (with no patch notes) when Psyker got the tree mini-remake. IIRC, it used to be capped at 16 but now it can reach the max stack of 32.

Super great post. In addition, having hitmass limitations to play with would allow for the creation of different weapon marks of the Inferno staff. We could have one with a wider cone or better stagger but less cleave, for example.

I’m so sick of these useless whiners. More than half the weapons in the game are useless, but you guys are constantly asking to nerf the Inferno staff.
Whether it’s in Auric or H40, I haven’t come across a single Psyker yet who could take out all my enemies for me.

Brilliant! Now all that has to be done is to rain likes upon this post and also link it under every announcement Quickpaw makes, for maximum chance of this info getting to the right set of eyes.

The change was that PC can feed off of itself. Blaze DoT could not trigger it prior.

They’re useless because all the enemies have to keep up with the Inferno Staff.

Oh great, another thread to melt my brain and yes, I’ll read it with pleasure. As if we haven’t read 6551648416848641641684616 identical threads before?

I could just repost my comment from the last one the people capable of logic would get it but hey, why take the easy way out?

Here’s a question: why do you keep using stationary mobs as examples? Could you maybe give a real example from an actual Havoc mission? Where a couple of poxwalkers or a few shooters are beating you in the back? Stop showing videos in sterile conditions they look nice only to people who don’t play Havoc and have no clue. What’s the point of a build showcase in PoE without an actual map run? Same thing here. And yes, I’ll say it in advance I know the actual result from a real game but I’m so tired of your videos where you burn mobs in the Psykhanium.

Why does almost every thread like this contain the argument “Psyker deals too much damage” and screenshots of the scoreboard? Are you aware that every class and build has a specific role, and everyone has roughly certain damage numbers even in that same “meta” you love to hate? And hey, maybe try to stop staring at damage numbers and start looking at what actually matters in Havoc who does what, what actions they take, when they press their buttons, how they move? That’s way more important than your damage numbers. But since we’re on the subject do you know why the Inferno staff has such high numbers? Because it compensates for damage over time and against hordes, but you’re probably too dense to realise that.

What if, for just one minute, you suddenly imagined that a Psyker in a classic build in Havoc is a completely different character in terms of DAMAGE NUMBERS and role compared to Auric? In Auric there are no real roles, but in Havoc there are. And by the way, what if just WHAT IF you bothered to notice that not so long ago the number of enemies in Havoc was increased? We’re talking about Havoc here, first and foremost. The difficulty was increased in the laziest way possible just adding more trash mobs is the dumbest and most braindead thing you can do. Sure, it’s more “fun”, but in reality it’s just lazy. And speaking of numbers and Havoc in my view, the number of regular trash mobs should be minimal even in hordes, and ideally bring back 60 or 75, and make Havoc actually about elite fights, not about the quantity of poxwalkers.

*Back to the argument: “Ogryn can’t land a hit before the mobs get burned.” I recently made a joke about that:

Summary

date May 13

but I didn’t think there were actually arguments this stupid in favour of nerfing the fire stick. If you can’t hit even a single mob as Ogryn what are you even doing on that class? Having a lunch break or something? For some reason I don’t know why I manage to hit everything, and on the contrary, if I have a Psyker on my team, I’m actually glad if they burn 99% of the threats, because then I can deal with the remaining 1%. And just recently during a mission, I actually thought about this argument “HE BURNS IT FASTER THAN I CAN HIT” and at that exact moment I’m pushing through a horde toward a Crusher. Maybe I got the wrong Psyker? Or am I playing wrong? Please enlighten me.

Do you play Havoc in random lobbies or with a premade group? I’m about 90% pugs even though on Havoc 40 almost everyone knows each other, still. And hey, try making your own lobby and REJECTING PSYKERS or if you do take one, ask them to switch builds. And I bet you haven’t even considered that some people just enjoy playing with that staff and those builds just as much as you enjoy whining and crying that you can’t land a single hit.

Why do you keep starting this stupid discussion over and over? Don’t you have any actual problems in the game? Why is the Inferno staff SO IMPORTANT? Didn’t the devs promise two years ago to release a curio crafting system? Where is it? Bombers that work like I don’t even know what, constant crashes, lag, no rotation in Havoc, sound issues, no bosses in the Psykhanium. I could go on forever but no, it’s always the fire stick. Go ahead, tell me that these are problems everyone agrees on, but the Inferno staff is worth discussing heard that one before. Maybe enough already? Just play the game. The real problem isn’t the Inferno staff it’s you, who can’t calm down. I hope you get what you want and they balance it just like they did with Staff #4 after Patch 13 so that it hurts to even pick it up, because you cried so hard. Or maybe they’ll just remove Psyker entirely, and then maybe a sane thought will cross your mind: the problem isn’t item X or talent Y.

for the 40,000th time

balance in a MULTIPLAYER PVE game is a problem insofar as a given build/weapon/talent array removes the ability for other players to properly engage in the content of the game.

Everyone pretty much already agrees on the other main problems in the game. Not every thread needs to be about these.

We need:

  • More maps
  • More enemies
  • More weapons
  • A massive sweep of key bugfixes (poxbursters for the 5th time)


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This is a weird argument Latifa.
If I am the player with the servo skull then I get to choose whether or not I want to interact with the hacking event. Thus I am not depriving myself of anything. I am gaining a choice. And if I, the player, just run up to the console and start the hacking event manually - I am just engaging in the core loop as it was designed so I am not depriving the other 3 players of their gameplay either. So when I send my skull it is also not depriving the other 3 players of their gameplay since I am replacing my own action on the console with another of my actions.

Personally I am grateful that I don’t have to interact with this minigame very much - its not more fun than the combat of darktide. Which is the real draw. Ultimately the skull is noticably slower at hacking than a half competent player so there is a bit of give and take to it. Though I mostly favor using the skull because slower but active in the defense is stronger. Its the kind of gameplay impactful non-damage oriented change a class should have. Side note - it also opens up more solo and duo game maps thus increasing content for niche players. Kinda a big W there.

I don’t play with Inferno Psykers whenever I can help it (aka whenever I’m playing havoc and haven’t joined a random pug lobby since I’m not enough of an ass to order some rando to cater to my preferences while they’re organizing the group) and I don’t run hardly any gameplay mods (it’s better buff management to highlight specific buffs for easier tracking and the guarantee X mods and that’s it really).

That doesn’t change the fact that inferno staff is a severe problem for the health of the game and needs to eat a nerf

Not to mention nobody sane would complain about not being able to do the Gameboy minigame. I mean, I complain about people using the auto-solve mod, as it is technically straight up cheating, but this is such a far fetched argument from Latifa. Flame staff keeps me from enjoying the core element of the game, namely the combat and variety of enemy encounters while flame staff just deletes everything with ease.

The reason Inferno should be nerfed, along with a broader balance pass across the game, is simple: keeping the power gap between weapons within a reasonable range makes player skill more important than weapon choice. It also allows players to use the weapons they enjoy in any situation without feeling like they’re putting themselves at a disadvantage. This is exactly what Fatshark stated in one of their previous balance blogs.

The same principle applies to class abilities. Saying “if you don’t like it, just don’t use it” completely misses the point. Balance is about the overall health of the game, not individual self-imposed restrictions.

More importantly, Havoc was introduced as a higher difficulty above Auric and Maelstrom, not as a completely separate game mode with its own balance philosophy. If the only way to justify a weapon’s balance is by arguing that “Havoc is basically a different game,” then that’s a clear sign the overall balance has already drifted too far.

Power creep has already forced the developers into constantly increasing enemy density just to maintain difficulty. The result isn’t only poorer balance, but also worse overall performance, with more stuttering, freezes, and frame drops that directly hurt the gameplay experience, especially on consoles.