Killing a special with a headshot is the minumum … to say, even Bow WS can 1shs every special, using a Bow more accurate, with higher RoF, with more mobility and less delay before shoot
HS does NOT have the highest boss damage, not even close… specially considering that scoring always headshot is virtually impossible
WS, BS and RV have a better ammo sustain
HS’ ult is really nothing special! Looong cooldown, short duration, you’re almost forced to use the talent to keep the inv after shooting (if you play Cataclysm, of course), the added damage is just meh
You may disagree, but that mine is invalid, it’s a lil too much
Kurnous Reward would be fine if the cooldown for the Ult wasn’t so spammable.
I’ll conceed the Longbow Huntsman has a role as a heavy hitter that’s distinct from Waystalker, but even still, her ult will at the very least take out 1. Both Huntsman and Bounty Hunter, you have to aim, and I’ve seen players struggling to hit 1 chaos warrior Huntsman.
To a certain extent. Why I like the idea of buffing Ranger Vet and Huntsman’s health is because it’ll make them more accessible to players. I’d say I see 10 Waystalker players for every 1 Huntsman. Rarely is the Ranger Vet player having an easy time, but people like to play in support roles sometimes.
By default it isnt very spammable, its only when you really go all in on stacking all the cooldown reduction, spirit arrows and whatnot that it really gets wild. Or if running mostly melee and using that to refresh ASAP.
But doing so does have its own prices, like no regen and either no stamina regen or no crit on the trinket, both high value stats in their own right for most of her weapons.
Default waystalker ult does not kill a chaos warrior, and even with enhanced power i think you need either 20 or 30% power vs to make it do so. Or if you got a WHC along but that´s WHC being a thing.
…Giving them a bit more health is probably not overly problematic but i honestly do not see how this would really help the given issue? Both already have invisibility, access to shield weapons and whatnot for survival. I do not think that´d be what keeps people from playing them. The biggest issues are instead just, that its either too much effort or too monotone in play, compared to other picks.
Why be some sneaky dood in a hood that can hit monsters hard when you can be a Holy Knight in armor summoning a Holy Sword to strike the foul monsters? Only reason would be if hood really was better to a near supermassive degree. And why be a sneaky boi with a crossbow when a minigun is an option?
In my experience, I can usually down a Chaos Warrior with Waystalker’s ult on Legend and Cata. A lot of players drop the health regen for cooldown talents, combining that with Asrai Focus for another 20%; that’s roughly 50% cooldown reduction just from talents. Personally, I run both of those and use a trinket with 10% cooldown instead of stamina regen, though not everyone can afford to give that up.
Some of this comes down to perception. Players often lean toward careers that look more robust set of weapons and thematically interesting ability. Still, standard ol’ Bounty Hunter with Crossbow is far more common than Huntsman with Longbow. BH offers fast, reliable ranged burst that doesn’t depend on consistently landing headshots. Waystalker’s popularity, especially with newer players stems from the same idea. Her ult doesn’t require precision or setup, you just press it and get damage. I often see players missing entirely, just from aiming vaguely in the direction of enemies around the team to try to steal a few free kills.
Ranger Veteran likely sees more play than Huntsman for a similar reason. He provides team utility: ammo drops, bombs, stealth. Huntsman, by comparison, doesn’t really offer utility outside of some raw damage if you can land your headshots. That’s not always enough to justify the pick especially for newer or mid-tier players.
Giving Huntsman 125 base HP would probably make him more approachable for Champion and Legend players, and might reduce complaints about survivability. For Ranger Vet, the same HP buff would put him closer to Engineer in terms of durability, especially considering he has access to stronger damage reduction talents.
Another thing is simply the limitation for Ranged options on a Ranged career. Bounty Hunter and Ranger Vet have a much more robust set of weapons.
I’ve put some ideas here if you’re interested in weighing in.
Sure the ult can kill one on legend just fine, but it doesnt on cata, it absolutely does not without investments or some manner of buff on cata. Might have to give up the assassin bodyshot for it if not using serrated.
Ah that´s a thing, if using bloodshot and activating that before shooting the CW, it´d probably work? But accessible as that is, its not the default.
As for the cooldown build i mean, you talked about Huntsman having bad ammo sustain or having to give up the damage reduction to get around that but you dont see the elf having the same pain point with giving up regen for more damage?
That or the ability just being bugged AF, that happens a whole lot too, but i digress.
Just got back into the game after what feels like almost a 2 year break.
Surprised to see there’s still Huntsman threads and people doubting his potential. Necromancer is the only career I struggle to outdamage as Huntsman, mostly due to Cursed Blood.
@Incandescent@Ensrick You two make good points about using a variety of weapons on Huntsman; the THP changes definitely helped with that.
I actually wish there was more incentive to melee on Huntsman and a little bit of attack speed somewhere in his talent tree to support slower weapons like greatsword, exe sword and two handed hammer.
Not everyone will agree with me on this, but I think Shot Crafter is too strong.
It scales incredibly well into harder content and allows Huntsman to ignore melee combat & ammo management almost entirely.
Just to be clear, I don’t think the amount of ammo is an issue, rather the way its gained and the stark difference when not running Shot Crafter.
There is very little to be surprised about. Here as well as on Reddit, Huntsman has always been one of the most talked about careers, one of the most needing a rework/buff… so much so that Fatshark itself had reworked him in the last BBB
Then I respect your opinion, but there are objective data, such as the weakness of synergy between talents and many of his weapons
And no, Shot Crafter is nothing special, both BH and WS have much better regeneration than ammo
That said, I’ll end it here, resuming the discussion I really don’t feel like it
Then you’re probably not playing with the greatest players. Any Sienna career can top damage easily. Also, Hagbane Waystalker or Griffinfoot BH should easily be able to outdo Huntsman, and Ranger Vet. Even Drakefire Pistol Ironbreaker I tend to outdo any Huntsman for damage. That really probably says more about how OP some of the other ranged builds are for damage.
AOE damage needs nerfs, maybe with caps on damage per shot. Huntsman is fine on his own, but newer players often struggle to survive with him. Giving Huntsman and RV 25 more HP would help them see more play at Champion/Legend level, while not doing much to change the experience for Cata players.
Personally, I enjoy Huntsman. He has a high skill ceiling and is rewarding to play. But he’s limited to 4 ranged weapons and still gets outclassed in damage by careers like Waystalker with cooldown stacking. On modded Cata3, Waystalker falls off, and Huntsman shines more, but even then, builds like Volcanic Force Bolt are stronger.
The problem is that too many talents are either overpowered or barely used. Most melee traits are either too niche or useless. Swift Slaying is still busted.
Chaos Wastes is a silly grenadier party, still exploiting Morgrims, still many crappy grudge mark combos that can destroy a party early on.
I still recommend the game, it has great build variety, but it’s gotten stale for. I’d return in a heartbeat if they added new weapons or enemy types. All my friends have quit playing, and I’ve noticed many experienced players dropping out.
I’m not against the idea but I don’t believe 25 extra HP will help new players.
Newer players are probably too fixated on trying to headshot everything because of his passive. Resulting in slower gameplay and the false illusion that he’s a “high skill headshot career”.
He’s also just a very breakpoint dependent career, new players aren’t gonna bother with this until they get better gear or enter higher difficulties.
I think weapon, talent and passive QoL would have a bigger impact, for instance a small tweak to his headshot procs:
Most ranged headshot procs in V2 also include the “neck” hitbox. Huntsman’s passives and talents do not. Resulting in marginally harder and/or less forgiving headshot procs.
I think the biggest thing @souI23 wants, is a more interesting passive & gameplay loop.
Which I partially agree; his whole identity rn is “shoot thing gud”
But making a new passive that is interesting, balanced and accommodating to all four ranged weapons is surprisingly difficult.
Neat idea, but shooting an elite or special is easy; hard to imagine land mines would be very useful. I’m thinking that’d be more of an anti-horde weapon.
Sniping is already good vs. elites/specials, if anything some extra damage to hordes could be useful, but I think they really need AOE damage caps.
But that’s exactly what he is meant to be. Aside from Bluntsman, he’s a dedicated sniper who rewards high-skill headshots. Maybe you mean to imply that since he can be spec’d for one-shot body shot breakpoints, that that’s meta.
Maybe with Handgun, but with Longbow, you don’t need to charge shots nearly as long if you can get juicy headshots and timings; then he kills elites/specials much faster. His best ranged weapon to compliment his talents and play-style is the longbow. You can get a feel for how long to charge a shot to get a one-shot kill with a headshot, and that’s how I see most players on Cata (and modded) use him.
A single passive doesn’t need to suit all four weapons. His current skill tree already supports a few builds for all 4 ranged options. But you’re right, he’s mainly a sniper, with Bluntsman as the occasional twist.
Ranger Vet has more variety, item drops, bomb ult, longer stealth, and more ranged options making him more fun overall. Huntsman feels a bit bland by comparison. He’d benefit from a few more ranged weapons, and once those are in, we could revisit some talents to better synergize with the new gear.
Getting a little sidetracked here so I’ll give you my takes.
I love Waste Not, Want Not because it enables trait & talent flexibility; but I wish for a small buff and Shot Crafter nerf.
Most “weak synergies” can be fixed via weapon QoL.
Makin’ It Look Easy could be a guaranteed crit if it wasn’t for Empire Longbow potentially dumpstering bosses.
Sure Shot & auto headshots are a terrible idea, mechanical aim shouldn’t be circumvented.
Repeater Handgun has the potential for either a ranged spam or headshot playstyle, but currently most players opt for the former because of its garbo spread & accuracy.
I wish for some attack speed & dodge in his talent tree for the sake of his slower weapons, enabling more variety. (e.g Greatsword + Handgun / Exe Sword + Blunderbuss)
Make’ Em Bleed, Burst of Enthusiasm and Longshanks are dead talents.
Outdated mechanics like dodge & movement penalties during Prowl should be removed, all it does is make Huntsman feel bad.
Hot take: Stealth is a detriment at times. Either by aggro dumping on allies or getting swamped in density because of the inability to phase through enemies.
I’ve probably missed some things but the point is even I, someone who constantly defends Huntsman and believes he is strong, has wishes & negative takes on Huntsman.
I just believe he needs numerous small QoL tweaks rather than big buffs/reworks.
I even got into modding to try fix some of those issues myself and experiment with peoples ideas but nobody can agree on what Huntsman needs, they just say X career does X thing better.
As for his lack of versatility, or other careers doing some things Huntsman can’t do, much of that comes a limited number of ranged options.
I think his melee is fairly strong. Dwarf and Kruber weapons require better timing, and now with THP talents being added and fixed, he can get by with Greatsword. I still think since Bardin and Kruber do have the slow/stagger kit, having only 100 base HP makes them both somewhat vulnerable considering their roles.
While I see your point, Kruber’s weapon options in general is never lacking in the horde clearing department, even if its slower on Huntsman. And then there’s the blunderbuss.
The landmine against specials I see as useful to cover a tricky spawn location while you are more free to focus elsewhere. Or even a line in his skill tree that alters its functions like a flash mine to stun a horde or monster.
Part of the issue with the Huntsman here is that this isn’t anything special or influential to his gameplay because most people would be aiming around the head area by default to begin with as it tends to do more damage.
That in the end is really the Huntsman’s issue. He doesnt do anything that stands out outside of doing tons of damage with a ranged weapon. That and Kruber has always had a very narrow selection of weapons which really doesn’t help.
I’m happy that the discussion has moved forward and ideas have been put forward. I’ll give it a try too
Now, Huntsman too strong, too weak, balanced… everyone has their own opinion, but there are some issues that, in my humble opinion, are objective
The first is the specificity of talents (specially tier 20 talents) and main passive for headshots. Mates, it’s fine to have a style like that, the career may have been designed that way… but this means that it becomes a single weapon: the bow. Don’t tell me that the Blunder or the RepGun are designed for headshots, because I don’t believe you
And you know what I say: not even the Handgun. The Handgun, in its latest rework, was specifically designed to have fundamental breakpoints at the torso… and, if I’m remind well, was specially wrote by Fatshark in the patch notes
(but also the bow, paradoxically, if HS has talents for headshots and WS doesn’t… why is the elf’s bow more agile and accurate? But okay, I’m exaggerating, there are bigger priorities)
Secondly, there are some really dull talents. Keep it Coming is powerful, increasing DPS, but boring, uninspired… and even lore-breaking. We are simple humans; we don’t create magic bullets out of thin air
Thirdly, the reward we get for headshots is not good:
It remains RNG, it is not something you can rely on. Example: I make a headshot and get +25% crit… but, for the next arrow, if it is crucial that I kill that specific enemy, I will still have to aim for the head, because there is no guarantee that the increased % will work;
in many cases, the enemy dies anyway even without the critical hit… it’s something mainly limited to bosses and CW. Too specific
The ULT is like trying to cover everything with a short blanket… low durability, invisibility not guaranteed, long cooldown, added damage not incredible
For me, first of all, we need to ensure that every talents line has AT LEAST one option designed for non-headshot builds. Then, I understand that people like the passive… but, for me, it’s still too specific, especially for the main passive
Secondly, but this is more general, we need to find more interesting talents and ideas (not a magic shot every 2 bullets)
Thirdly, and most importantly for me, the best way to improve and make the Huntsman more unique is IMHO to work on the ULT. We’re human, it’s okay to be clumsier than an elf (and less skilled than a BH), but then let me base my gameplay on ambushes. Make Huntsman less effective than his “rivals” (aka others ranged careers) outside of his ULT… but make his ULT better, let me base my gameplay on it
I’m not saying Blunderbuss is a headshot weapon but the proc consistency could be massively improved by adding a bullseye pellet and adding the “neck” / “weakpoint” hitzones to WNWN.
Rep Gun actually has some nice headshot BPs with One in the Eye.
The main thing holding it back is the poor spread & recoil. With some improvements players could build Rep Gun for spam fire or headshot BPs.
One in the Eye would be useful for more weapons if it didn’t scale with headshot coefficient; 30% to 35% total damage on headshots would be more appropriate.
Keep It Coming is fine, QoL for more readability and tweaks so it doesn’t jank manbow out.
If you’re going to complain about “magic bullets” then you need to complain about BH Prize Bounty or RV duping bombs.
I actually get you here and I would genuinely love for it to be a guaranteed crit but the one thing holding it back is Manbow dumpstering bosses.
It also needs some QoL so it doesn’t affect melee, nor consumed by it.
It’s a massive boon for his ammo economy. The damage potential is pretty high; 40% reload speed, 50% headshot bonus and a 1.5x ranged boost (RV is 1x)
The dodge & movement penalties need straight up removing and the cooldown could be a little lower.
Not sure how I feel about invis tbh, it can be cheesy but I can admit Huntsman has some of the weaker invis capabilities.
@souI23 How do you feel about melee based ammo sustain?
Huntsman (With Shot Crafter) has little incentive to melee outside of THP. I believe nerfing Shot Crafter and buffing WNWN with melee based ammo sustain would be a really healthy change to balance his ammo economy and encourage melee gameplay.
e.g V1 scavenger
or melee based Keep It Coming (This kinda steps on Bounty Hunter’s toes)
While Blunderbuss is often not worth aiming at the head level of enemies, repeater handgun is perfectly viable for that, since you don’t need to headshot every single (or even most) bullet to make use of either talent:
Thrill of the Hunt gives you a 5s reload speed bonus, so as long as you headshot once during your salvo, you benefit.
Makin’ It Look Easy gives you a high likelihood for a crit, which lets you procc Hunter every single salvo and even multiple instances vs different armour classes, just aim at chest-head level and it’s an easy damage buff. And if you are running Scrounger instead, that should always be enough for good ammo sustain without Shot Crafter.
Meaning that with Thrill of the Hunt, if you want to shoot faster, you get headshots even though you don’t need them, and if you don’t mind the lower DPS, you just do much easier bodyshots + vs monsters/cws you want to go for headshots either way.
There is a lot that simple humans can’t do, but do in the game, like getting stabbed in the chest by a big halberd and walking around as if nothing happened. Random ‘lore-breaking’ talents/things are everywhere and accepted in this game.
And if you miss your headshot and get a bodyshot instead, you have a ~35% chance to still get the kill.
And if you finish them off with a headshot, you again have 35% chance that if you accidentally land a bodyshot against the next enemy, you’ll still get a kill.
Plus, you are guaranteed to activate Hunter/Scrounger.
Additionally, if you’re using repeater, you just spam it into whatever horde of enemies is in front of you, and by default, it takes 3-4 shots to kill an elite, there is a decent likelihood that one of the bullets will reduce the time to kill.
Personally, I’d say that the bonus damage is pretty incredible (never mind the massive reload speed increase):
With the right build and Hunter, Longbow can 1-shot bodyshot all elites on ult without crits, while CWs die in 2 headshots or 1 crit headshot. Also, great DPS vs monsters even without concoction, but with a good headshot rate.
Or say Blunderbuss 1-shotting stormvermin/bestigors. Bonus: concoction + ult → 1 shot bodyshot chaos warrior.
Overall, I love Huntsman’s ult since it actually impacts the ranged weapon you’re using massively, while BH, WS, Pyro, and BW all have ults that are separate from their ranged weapons.
Now sure, Huntsman definitely has a few useless talents, but he does have unique and powerful playstyles with Longbow, Repeater and Blunderbuss, out of which only Longbow has actual headshot focus, while the other two are just different types of blind ranged spam. I think that if you want to see more playstyles, than Kruber needs new ranged weapons since that’s what will create the most impactful build variety.
Otherwise, most important changes I’d make are to remove the movement penalties on ult and maybe cut down the cooldown a bit to make it more spammable because even though I play with Blend In and CDR trinket it still a pretty lengthy cooldown.
That’s true, but why should Huntsman be incentivised to do melee? Especially if it was to come at the cost of the ranged playstyles (nerfing shot crafter)? I could see it if people were complaining about ranged spamming Huntsman being too strong, but that’s clearly not the case. Maybe a separate melee-oriented playstyle could be implemented by replacing the rarely picked talents, but I don’t fancy nerfing the other playstyles.
Because playing with a ranged career that snipes every elite or deletes every horde can be anti-fun at times.
Shot Crafter is also a really strong pick right now, for deeds, twitch, modded content and especially Chaos Wastes where you can’t pick an ammo trait.
I’m talking about a really small nerf (10% to 7.5%) for the sake of improving his talent flexibility.
A small WNWN buff and lower Prowl CD outweigh a small Shot Crafter nerf.
So Longbow would lose 1 ammo each special kill but Huntsman as a whole would gain more trait & talent flexibility. Shot Crafter would be less of a must pick, especially in the listed modes.
A lower Prowl CD, and a little bit extra innate ammo sustain that doesn’t rely on headshots; helping new or struggling players.
I genuinely wasn’t referring to you, it was a general speech. Anyway, your idea would definitely help, but I would prefer styles and talents created specifically for weapons not designed for headshots
Yep, those are talents I don’t like too… but, apart the lore question, the main point it that I find Keep it Coming terribly flat. I mean, good as dps booster, but so dull
The bosses speech is slightly different and more complicated… because you have to consider that it’s really difficult to maintain a high ratio of headshots on bosses, sometimes literally impossible, if the boss isn’t looking at you
However, I didn’t necessarily mean a guaranteed critical hit, even another type of reward, but one that is certain and therefore manageable… not RNG
Yes, but most of its useful damage comes from “altering” the type of armour… for example, it’s fun to hit SVs with light arrows
But about the rest? Against bosses? You only notice it with a very high headshot ratio (but then we go back to the previous speech); against CWs? It’s the same, you’re forced to aim for headshots, and of course aiming for a CW’s head is easier than bosses, but the duration is still too short to do significant damage to a patrol (and the ult vs CW is almost useless with the RepGun or Blunder)
But, in the end, I’m ok with the current damage. The problem is that keeped invisibility should be as default… otherwise, at higher difficulties, you can’t take advantage of the entire duration. The cooldown is too long and the duration too short. In the final events (specially hardest ones, like the ones of the “snow maps”), for example, it’s something you really notice. You use it once, maybe you win a complicated situation, and then ages go by before you can use it again… you feel so vulnerable
It’s good for ammo, yes, but ammo isn’t a problem. With any ranged career
I really like both these ideas
On paper, it’s true, but the problem remains, it’s clear that there isn’t good synergy: to gain one advantage (trigger the headshots based talents), you have to give up another (Handgun’s torso breakpoints and RepGun’s ‘spamming’). Worse still, you have to use the weapon against its nature
Why does only the Huntsman have to work this way? It has weapons that are objectively not designed for headshots… give me non-headshots talents too
This doesn’t mean scrapping its headshot style, just opening up the career to more possibilities
See how many “IF”?
BH? A sure critical. WS? A sure double arrow. HS? IF you miss… IF the % works. We can do much better
Regarding the ULT, I’ve already written about it above
… to say, even Bow WS can 1shs every special, using a Bow more accurate, with higher RoF, with more mobility and less delay before shoot