Hero Touchup / Balance Pass Ideas

[Ensrick]

To try and consolidate feedback and get a sense of what people think: if something is contentious, I’ll remove it. If I seem out of line with a suggestion, I’ll adjust or cross it out based on feedback. If you have a suggestion, I’ll try to add it. The goal is to make this post reflect community consensus, not just personal preference.

Note: Many of these changes are adapted from the Tourney mod. Since Fatshark has already implemented solid THP changes from that source, I figured it’s worth pulling more ideas from there.

General Changes

• 10% movement speed talent passives increased to 15%.
• 5% passive bonuses (attack speed, power, crit chance) increased to 10%, similar to Slayer.
• Triple aura radii.
• Remove Mainstay; replace with Assassin or Bulwark.
• Enhanced Power increased to 10%. This is contingent on increasing the resilience of Stormvermin and specials to ranged body shots, and raising stagger thresholds for elites.
• Bulwark: 10% damage bonus applies to all damage types. Duration increased to 5 seconds.
• No friendly fire from abilities. Friendly fire also no longer triggers passives.
• Assassin: No longer activates on crits.

Mercenary

• Helborg’s Tutelage: No longer blocks natural crits.

Huntsman

• Hunter’s Prowl: Cooldown reduced from 90 to 60 seconds.
• Base health increased to 125.
• Hunter’s Prowl Grant invisibility by default.
• Concealed Strikes: Elite and special kills during Prowl refund 5% cooldown per kill.

Foot Knight

• Valiant Charge: Cooldown increased to 40 seconds. Ult cleave and size improved.
• Comrades in Arms: Protective Presence also grants +15% melee power to Kruber and allies.
• Inspiring Blow: Staggering elites grants a 5% cooldown reduction buff per hit, stacking up to 5 times, lasting 5 seconds each.
• Have at Thee!: Grants 5% power per strike on an elite, stacking up to 5 times, 8 seconds per stack.
• Crowd Clearer: Pushing an enemy grants +15% attack speed and +40% cleave for 3 seconds.
• Staggering Force: +20% stagger power scaling up to 50% on full charged attacks.
• Could use a talent or ability offering some form of Burst Damage similar to how Ironbreaker has Drakefire, and Warrior Priest has Fury.
• Idea: Kruber deals 20% extra damage to all enemies hit by Valiant Charge for 15s.

Grail Knight

• Virtue of Knightly Temper: Critical strikes instantly slay enemies if their current health is less than *5 times the amount of damage of the critical strike.
• Virtue of Discipline: Buff duration increased to 10 seconds.
• Virtue of the Impetuous Knight: Attack and movement speed increased by 35% for 25 seconds.

Ranger Vet

• Base HP increased to 125.
• Exuberance: Stacks 6% 5% Damage Reduction up to 5x on scoring a ranged head-shot, taking a hit removes a stack
• Last Resort: When Bardin’s ranged weapon is empty, he gains 25% melee power for 10s.
• Ranger’s Parting Gift: In addition to it’s current effects, Ranger Vet starts with 1 bomb, similar to the Engineer rework giving Engineer 2 bombs for his bomb talent; this way he doesn’t have to bum one off players, of if he gets unlucky, can’t find a bomb, he has one to start with.
• Ingenious Improvisation Perk: Once every 90s *180s, Bardin gains a buff that allows him to not consume a potion, bomb, or heal when using one. This, instead of the 10% chance not to use an item.
• Drunken Brawler: Drink ale 2x as fast as regular potions
• Surprise Guest: In addition to being able to stay invisible outside smoke, grants 20% 15% Cooldown Reduction to Disengage
• New Passive: Double effective range of weapons like Huntsman.

Waystalker

• Drakira’s Alacrity: Ranged Headshots deal 25% more damage.
• Drakira’s Alacrity: Ranged Headshots grant 15% attack speed for 10s, lasts 8s longer per headshot stacking up to 3x
• Spirit Arrows: Replaced; Amaranthe gives 5% of max ammo to Waystalker per tick. Does not remove the health regen of Amaranthe.
• Asrai Focus: Reduces Cooldown of Trueflight Volley by 15% (instead of 20%).
• Amaranth: Regen up to full HP instead of half; regeneration reduced to 2HP every 10s.

Shade

• New Passive, Blur: Parry window increased by 50%.
• Cloak of Pain: Dual weapons no longer sometimes consume both charges of ult instead of 1 with a single attack.
• Hungry Wind: Leaving Infiltrate grants 20% movement speed, +20% Melee Power, and the ability to pass through enemies for 15s. No longer grants bonus damage.
• Cruelty: Critical strike damage bonus increased to 80% and grants 5% bonus Crit Chance.

Sister of the Thorn

• Radiant Inheritance: Duration increased to 20s.

Witch Hunter Captain

• Riposte: Parrying grants a guaranteed crit for the next heavy melee or ranged attack — no expiration.
• **Templar’s Kowledge: **Aura of 10% additional damage to all taggable enemies.
• Wild Fervor: +3% Crit Chance when taggable enemies die for 8s, stacking up to 5x.

Bounty Hunter

• Double-Shotted: Cooldown Reduction on headshot increased from 60% back to 80%. *Can only proc once every 10s.
  Indiscriminate Blast: * Cooldown Reduction increased from 25% to 60%. *Killing enemies with the ult no longer grants additional pellets to the next ult.
• Melee kills reset the cooldown of Blessed Shots (from Blessed Combat to Passive Perk)

Zealot

• Smite: No longer disables natural crits.
• Fiery Faith: +4% melee power per 25 missing HP (was 5%, previously applied to ranged too), stacking up to 6x.
• Holy Fervor: Converts green HP to THP on activation.

Warrior Priest

• Blazing Bright: Taking damage no longer generates Fury. Fury generation rate increased by +30%. Entering Fury grants a standard Shield of Faith (no talent bonuses).
• Sigmar’s Executioner: Elite kills grant +5% crit chance, stacking to 3x. Crits remove all stacks. (No timer anymore.)
• Unstoppable Force: Restore Divine Escoriation’s pulse-push attack effect. It was more fun, and provided useful stagger utility on higher difficulties.
• Prayer of Vengeance: Restore the previous +25% power vs Monsters to the party.

Unchained

• Don’t allow overcharge to be generated from friendly fire, gas, ranged specials (Gunners, Archers), or Warpfire. Only melee damage contributes to overcharge buildup.
• Overcharge Incapacitation Fix: Becoming incapacitated (e.g., pounced, grabbed) while overcharged should not result in an instant down.
• Chain Reaction (Rework): Chain Reaction explosions should either ignite enemies or deal damage, rather than just staggering.
• Natural Talent: Reduces overcharge generation by 20% (is 10%).
• Fuel for the Fire: Allow the buff stack up to 10 times.

[Frostysir]

I think i like a lot of these changes, but some points i contend.

@Ensrick

General Changes

• 10% movement speed talent passives increased to 15%.

A difference in 10% movespeed is already noticeable for those with 0% extra, adding more is just gona make those without feel even more awkwardly slow to play.

@Ensrick

• Assassin: No longer activates on crits.

This is a HUGE, F to the Elf (3 careers mainly) and WHC, i cant say i am fond of the idea? It may be to the point where several weapons would need buffs just to make up for it.

@Ensrick

Huntsman…"

Looks good👍

@Ensrick

Foot Knight

Wouldnt these changes together just make him a much stronger Merc? Powercreep + Merc value lost all at once, I am not at all so sure these changes are a good plan.

@Ensrick

Virtue of Knightly Temper: Critical strikes instantly slay enemies if their current health is less than *5 times the amount of damage of the critical strike.

4x isnt enough? O_O

@Ensrick

Ranger Vet

A lot of this is just powercreep for little reason, i get wanting to fix boring parts like 5% talents or the “might refund a medkit” but this doesnt feel like it. He gets much tankier, can bomb/Pot for free practically every other wave and also shoots better…

@Ensrick

• Drakira’s Alacrity: Ranged Headshots deal 25% more damage.

This change is odd, i mean sure Alacrity is crap but…25% doesnt do anything, does it? The only weapon that headshots that much is longbow. And it already gets the job done.

@Ensrick

• Wild Fervor: +3% Crit Chance when taggable enemies die for 8s, stacking up to 5x.

This option would just murder the competition and make him and team stronger in general, less build diversity and more powercreep in one go.

…

[Ensrick]

I’ll update it.

The removal of Assassin applying on crits comes from the Tourney Mod. The logic behind this nerf is likely due to how dominant Assassin is compared to other stagger talents. It’s often the clear choice, making alternatives like Mainstay and Bulwark feel underwhelming or obsolete.

Virtue of Knightly Temper, the Ranger Vet talent buffs, Wild Fervor, etc, is that those seem to be not so great talents compared to the ones near them. For Wild Fervor, I didn’t think 15% more Crit Chance it was too extreme for killing 5 elites within 8s of each other. Perhaps 2% stacking 5x? Seems like the 5% crit chance buff for 5s doesn’t do much, but I could be wrong.

Foot Knight is in a strange spot. As a “stagger tank,” his identity doesn’t hold up compared to others like Ironbreaker or Warrior Priest, who not only stagger effectively but also bring far more damage or utility.
Yes, some of this might be power creep, but the reality is that Ironbreaker and Warrior Priest feel fine; it’s Foot Knight who feels outdated. His Level 10 talent row in particular is underwhelming and could use a rethink. Stagger-focused gameplay just isn’t compelling enough as a core identity unless paired with strong utility or burst potential, which he lacks.

For the movement speed passive, the idea behind the buff is simply that it’s not a great choice compared to damage reduction or most talents on the rows in which you find it for Shade, Ranger, and Huntsman. I think maybe a better idea would be to buff the movement speed on Trinket to 10%, requiring a sacrifice of Crit Chance to become very mobile. I think the idea behind those talents is for those careers to be able to maneuver more effectively since 2 are ranged, and the other hits things from behind.

Could you elaborate on why increased ranged effectiveness wouldn’t be appropriate for Ranger Veteran? Both Waystalker and Huntsman have similar passives that enhance their ranged capabilities, so it seems consistent that Bardin should get something comparable.
Ranger Vet isn’t putting out absurd damage, even when using bomb-recycling builds. His main damage setup typically revolves around the Grudgeraker, which, while powerful, is limited by ammo and range. The proposed Damage Reduction talent is comparable to what Huntsman or Engineer already have, and it’s balanced by the fact that it’s stack-based and conditional.
As for the “spent ammo” passive, the idea is essentially parallel to what was done for Bounty Hunter, where melee kills reset the Blessed Shots cooldown. It’s a way to make his hybrid gameplay loop smoother without making him overperform in any single role — and it fits the improvisational, scrappy flavor of Ranger Vet.

Any alternative ideas for Drakira’s Alacrity, Ranger Vet’s less useful talents and the like? A number of the changes for Ranger Vet are simply Tourney Mod changes or buffs to unused talents that come at the expense of using something else.

Particularly Ranger Vet:

• Base HP increased to 125. - Like Engineer and my suggestion for Huntsman
• Exuberance: Stacks 6% Damage Reduction up to 5x on scoring a ranged head-shot, taking a hit removes a stack. - Like Engineer and Huntsman
• Last Resort: When Bardin’s ranged weapon is empty, he gains 25% melee power for 10s. - Like Bounty Hunter’s changes
• Ranger’s Parting Gift: Starts with a bomb. - Like Engineer bomb talents
• Ingenious Improvisation Perk: Once every 90s, Bardin gains a buff that allows him to not consume a potion, bomb, or heal when using one. - More consistency.
• Drunken Brawler: Drink ale 2x as fast as regular potions - Less risk to the team to keep the buff up
• Surprise Guest: Add 20% Additional Cooldown Reduction - From Tourney Mod, I’d consider the other level 30 talents more useful even still
• New Passive: Double effective range of weapons like Huntsman. - Same as both Huntsman and Waystalker; also, from Tourney Mod.

Before I cross most everything on Ranger Vet and Foot Knight, I need a little more detail, or alternative suggestions as the case may be.

[CobaltNinja]

@Ensrick

Holy Fervor: Converts green HP to THP on activation.

I can’t say I’m as knowledgeable as you on VT2, but as someone who wants to play Zealot a lot more without having to play gimped from the start, I support this change.

[Ensrick]

Can’t take credit for this one, it’s an idea from the Tourney Mod.

[Frostysir]

@Ensrick

“…It’s often the clear choice, making alternatives like Mainstay and Bulwark feel underwhelming or obsolete”

Ah i did not mean to state it was your idea, i did read the post, but i oppose it all the same.
,…

So going right in, certainly, assassin is overwhelmingly used over mainstay or bulwark but, Elf doesnt have bulwark on any career. Mainstay? She literally has 0 melee weapons that can use this talent well, the conditions for it are so out of place for her that Enhanced power does more for her melee if i am not mistaken.

Plus for Waystalker and other ranged careers, there´s a lot of value with EP and breakpoints at times, given no other such talent offers any ranged help. Naturally even fairly good talents like Bulwark naturally get sidelined by such.

Really, if someone dislikes the fact that one option is overwhelmingly used due to the other options being relatively or outright awful, then the solution should not be nerfing that option. And with that said, i´d not promote the idea of doing so either.

@Ensrick

Virtue of Knightly Temper, the Ranger Vet talent buffs, Wild Fervor, etc, is that those seem to be not so great talents compared to the ones near them. For Wild Fervor, I didn’t think 15% more Crit Chance it was too extreme for killing 5 elites within 8s of each other. Perhaps 2% stacking 5x? Seems like the 5% crit chance buff for 5s doesn’t do much, but I could be wrong.

Its not that Virtue of Knightly Temper is so bad as the build for it just isnt popular, GK doesnt inherently crit a ton so people usually just go flat power safety with bret sword + shield or such. Mace and sword + exe tho? No shield is dangerous but so are you to all enemies in reach.

As for WHC, you do not see a problem with cata teams gaining a near well 15% permanent crit buff during all waves? Even 10% is strong.

As for RV, the thing i immidiately took note of was the passive rework granting free bomb or potion of choice every 90, i mean sure he has to go a few minutes at the start of the map and find something first but after that its just so much free power outa pocket. Combined with the suggested “surprise guest” cooldown reduction and whatnot and he´s suddenly doing more bombs with higher invis (and ranged power) uptime. Then the rest…its just so wildly strong.

@Ensrick

Foot Knight is in a strange spot. As a “stagger tank,” his identity doesn’t hold up compared to others like Ironbreaker or Warrior Priest, who not only stagger effectively but also bring far more damage or utility.

Err, how so? Ironbreaker CAN bring flame weapons but that´s not the default of the career by any means, just side by side they are very comparable granted many use rifle/crossbow on him for specials. As for Warrior Priest? …No gun or not i honestly think he´s overtuned and very strong.

And forgive me if i am wrong but, isnt Foot Knights lvl 10 row quite strong?`

1. 35% stagger power ( huge buff)
2. 10 seconds of +15% power elite stagger (high uptime on cata hordes)
3. 3 seconds of +15% attackspeed on push, no cooldown (high uptime in cata hordes?)

Compare to the ranged specialist waystalker being like

1. +1 projectile on next shot after MELEE kill
2. +5 - ish damage per shot, does not stack with other dots. (Only does anything for 2 outa 5 ranged weapons)
3. 15% bonus attackspeed after a ranged headshot, 5 seconds (is never used)

Honestly i think FK is lowkey very strong already, his ult has nearly the same cooldown as Handmaiden does on hers but his impact is in a whole other league. I honestly think he may well be stronger than Merc for the most part.

@Ensrick

For the movement speed passive, the idea behind the buff is simply…"

Shade is already incredibly mobile and slippery with correct passive usage, and i use the 10% movespeed on her over the others. As for RV and Huntsman? I do not see how 15% movespeed could ever compete with the other options on the row. Arguably give both like ~5% bonus default movespeed as a passive and a new talent that does something else.

@Ensrick

Could you elaborate on why increased ranged effectiveness wouldn’t be appropriate for Ranger Veteran…"

Its not that it isnt thematically fitting, its that when combined with the new passive and a shorter ability cooldown, he´d already be MUCH stronger, moderation is key or powercreep takes hold.

As for what his main setup is, do not base it on any one weapon, that´d be a mistake.

@Ensrick

Exuberance: Stacks 6% Damage Reduction up to 5x on scoring a ranged head-shot, taking a hit removes a stack. - Like Engineer and Huntsman

Why should Ranger Veteran and Huntsman, two careers that can go invisible, especially moreso with suggested buffs, have equal access to damage reduction as the much slower, clunkier and less self-saving Engineer? This premise is problematic from the start.

@Ensrick

• Last Resort: When Bardin’s ranged weapon is empty, he gains 25% melee power for 10s. - Like Bounty Hunter’s changes

…This is fine, sure.

@Ensrick

• Ranger’s Parting Gift: Starts with a bomb. - Like Engineer bomb talents

This wouldnt actually be used much, new passive combined with “Surprise Guest” changes together serve as a straight up buff to the current Parting gift talent.

@Ensrick

• Ingenious Improvisation Perk: Once every 90s, Bardin gains a buff that allows him to not consume a potion, bomb, or heal when using one. - More consistency.

Surely you know how controversial OE is already? Giving RV the same stuff is not helping, its just more powercreep.

…

As for suggestions about what to do for the less popular talents…i recall seeing good suggestions from others, maybe even made my own at some point but none i recall right up and down now.

[Ensrick]

@Frostysir

Really, if someone dislikes the fact that one option is overwhelmingly used due to the other options being relatively or outright awful, then the solution should not be nerfing that option.

That depends. Typically, the outlier, whether it’s overperforming or underperforming is what needs adjustment. If one option stands out because everything else is underwhelming, then sure, buff the others. But if something is clearly overtuned, then bringing it in line is a valid solution too.

@Frostysir

Its not that it isnt thematically fitting, its that when combined with the new passive and a shorter ability cooldown, he´d already be MUCH stronger, moderation is key or powercreep takes hold.
As for what his main setup is, do not base it on any one weapon, that´d be a mistake

Fair, but when I tested the Tourney mod (granted with DWONS on for both C1 and C3), I didn’t see a major meta shift around Ranger Vet. People still used the pistol for monster damage, the shotgun frequently for CC, and occasionally the rifle for chaos warriors, but rarely at long range. Compared to Waystalker or Huntsman, his effective range just feels lacking, more like an oversight than anything else that they didn’t also give him greater range.

@Frostysir

free bomb or potion of choice every 90

I tried estimating how often the 10% chance not to consume a heal, potion, or bomb would actually trigger in a standard mission (15–30 minutes). That averages out to about 5 to 10 free items. Maybe spacing it out more, like triggering once every 180 seconds; would that strike a better balance?

As for Foot Knight, I’ve never been able to match the melee damage of the other tanks. Even excluding Drakefire, Ironbreaker and Warrior Priest both benefit from strong melee-enhancing passives; power on block or taunt, bursts of attack speed from Gromil going off, and so on. WP in particular gets a lot of damage value from Fury.
I think Foot Knight could really use a build option that allows for a burst mechanic or moment of high output to bring him closer to the others. I’ll admit I don’t know what that would look like or how to do that.

@Frostysir

Why should Ranger Veteran and Huntsman, two careers that can go invisible, especially moreso with suggested buffs, have equal access to damage reduction as the much slower, clunkier and less self-saving Engineer? This premise is problematic from the start.

I’d argue that’s a bit shortsighted. Engineer feels slightly overtuned at the moment. Keep in mind that Huntsman’s damage reduction talent already does stack, and both Huntsman and Ranger Vet tend to sit at the lower end of the damage curve. Engineer, meanwhile, has considerably more damage output. Instead of bumping their damage to match, making Ranger Vet and Huntsman more durable could be a healthier direction, especially since RV in particular feels pretty vulnerable.

As is, Ranger Vet gets a solid 30% damage reduction, pretty much whenever he’s in melee if you’re getting in a few head-shots. I’m proposing keep that at 30% Damage Reduction, but allowing it to remain up for with stacks so that a lone rat doesn’t take off a chunk of HP with poor connectivity. This change also makes it require getting ranged headshots so it’s not at 30% all the time in a horde unless you’ve been scoring those headshots.

@Frostysir

This wouldnt actually be used much, new passive combined with “Surprise Guest” changes together serve as a straight up buff to the current Parting gift talent.

I’m not sure I follow. How does a 20% cooldown reduction on the middle level 30 talent Suprise Guest interact with Parting Gift?

As for Drakira’s Alacrity, what about letting the 15% attack speed last 8 seconds and have each stack extend the duration by another 8 seconds, up to three stacks? That might make it feel more impactful without becoming overwhelming.

EDIT: Also updated the main post, let me know what you think about suggestions for Unchained and Warrior priest if you like. I also made changes to anything I recall we discussed.

[alsozara]

@Ensrick

Double-Shotted: Cooldown Reduction on headshot increased from 60% back to 80%.

As a BH main ewwwwww, why would anybody want this? Stagger locking a boss to death, even if a potion and a good amount of skill is required, is simply never acceptable.

[Ensrick]

@alsozara

even if a potion and a good amount of skill is required

That’s why, a potion and a good amount of skill is justification enough for me while ults exist that don’t require much thought and offer free damage. Personally I think it was fine before, and it was good in the Tourney mod. Few can even do it. It’s not just practice, you need time and space to not get hit during it. Really the Griffin Foot stands out way more, and specifically because of it’s damage with Blessed Shots / Crits, and the fast reloading.

If the issue is spamming it with a potion then all that’s needed is a timer on the refund so it can’t be applied continuously during a potion.

EDIT: Updated the suggestion to include a 10 second cooldown before the 80% refund can proc again.

[Frostysir]

@Ensrick

Fair, but when I tested the Tourney mod (granted with DWONS on for both C1 and C3), I didn’t see a major meta shift around Ranger Vet. People still used the pistol for monster damage, the shotgun frequently for CC, and occasionally the rifle for chaos warriors, but rarely at long range. Compared to Waystalker or Huntsman, his effective range just feels lacking, more like an oversight than anything else that they didn’t also give him greater range.

Tourney mod is a specific enviroment, i presume nearly everyone and their buddies playing RV were using bomb builds with smoke cooldown for clear and pistol for anti bossing?

@Ensrick

That averages out to about 5 to 10 free items. Maybe spacing it out more, like triggering once every 180 seconds; would that strike a better balance?

If he loses the free bomb on every ult then arguably the cooldown should be the around the same as now, maybe around 100-110 seconds depending on how much cooldown reduction he usually gets? …Actually maybe you were right and it should be less.

I did not consider cooldown reduction gains via talents or just hitting properly.

@Ensrick

As for Foot Knight, I’ve never been able to match the melee damage of the other tanks…"

Excluding Drakeguns there´s nothing in his kit that makes it evident why Ironbreaker could outdamage a FK building for it. This seems more like a question about builds rather than anything else.

As for our local angry and heavily armored Priest…yah i think he´s just over the top, no way around it. Think i actually stated as much around the last time he got “tweaked” (mostly buffed) too.

@Ensrick

"…making Ranger Vet and Huntsman more durable could be a healthier direction, especially since RV in particular feels pretty vulnerable.

I truly do not see how making the damage dealer/semi support very tanky while cranking up their damage utility at the same time is a good plan “because Engineer stronk”? O_O

It´s not so much an issue with Huntsman granted his baseline and utility is already lower than RV…oh, additionally, arent damage resistance mechanics that work in stacks like OE´s very prone to failing when faced with say ratlings, fire or such? Isnt this potentially a nerf?

@Ensrick

I’m not sure I follow. How does a 20% cooldown reduction on the middle level 30 talent Suprise Guest interact with Parting Gift?

My understanding was that the proposed changes were :

1. New surprise guest effect is a cooldown reduction on the talent.
2. New passive was free bombs on a cooldown shorter than current on paper ult cooldown(realized i had not thought this through earlier)
3. New parting gift effect is just starting with a bomb but nothing else

To me that reads as this :

1. New parting gift is not good, just one starting bomb and that´s it? None would use it unless doing something specific knowing they´d not get bombs.
2. More bombs is just the same powercreep as OE
3. Shorter ability cooldown raises survivability and damage all by itself, add everything else ontop and its a whole lot.

@Ensrick

As for Drakira’s Alacrity, what about letting the 15% attack speed last 8 seconds and have each stack extend the duration by another 8 seconds, up to three stacks? That might make it feel more impactful without becoming overwhelming.

So 3 headshots in a row and you get 15% bonus ATS for 24 seconds? I mean, it could work but…well its not competetive with the other two options. Much better than now but it doesnt fix the thing with “There´s little to no case in which you´d want this over the others given the weapons she has”.

…

As for Warrior Priest and UC changes, i like the UC ones, a lot of QoL and even one that feels more like a bugfix than anything else. As for WP, seems good though i cant say if the monster damage thing does anything, competition is hard on that row.

[Ensrick]

@Frostysir

Tourney mod is a specific enviroment, i presume nearly everyone and their buddies playing RV were using bomb builds with smoke cooldown for clear and pistol for anti bossing?

Pretty much, but I don’t see how that’s relevant. I think giving double effective range is pretty standard for ranged careers, and I can’t see that making a huge difference; it’d mainly give him good body shots for special sniping like Ranger and Waystalker on Cata; wouldn’t likely effect Legend and below much.

@Frostysir

If he loses the free bomb on every ult then arguably the cooldown should be the around the same as now, maybe around 100-110 seconds depending on how much cooldown reduction he usually gets? …Actually maybe you were right and it should be less.

I think there’s some confusion here. I’m not talking about the free bomb on Ult; He has a 10% chance not to consume an item. I’m just interested in changing the way this works so that it’s not random; rather it’s on a cooldown thus giving the player a way to make use of it.

@Frostysir

I truly do not see how making the damage dealer/semi support very tanky while cranking up their damage utility at the same time is a good plan “because Engineer stronk”? O_O

As for Engineer, I don’t think it’s just “Engineer strong”—his durability works because he’s not as mobile as other 100hp careers. This is suitable a Dwarf with slower heavy melee, and the slow speed he has with the Crank. He’s OP usually when he has 11 trollhammer shots and a crankgun combo, not because of the durability.

Ranger Vet likewise isn’t floating around dealing lots of damage like Sienna or Elf, so I feel 125hp for a support career works, and I don’t think much else I proposed is a huge buff to his damage, so much as making less useful talents comparably useful to the others on the same row.

@Frostysir

It´s not so much an issue with Huntsman granted his baseline and utility is already lower than RV…oh, additionally, arent damage resistance mechanics that work in stacks like OE´s very prone to failing when faced with say ratlings, fire or such? Isnt this potentially a nerf?

The intent behind Ranger Vet’s damage reduction I believe is to suit a ranged career, but it doesn’t play like that. It’s more up when you’re in melee. Wouldn’t you agree?

I think stacks that get removed on taking a hit like Huntsman and Ranger Vet

@Frostysir

Excluding Drakeguns there´s nothing in his kit that makes it evident why Ironbreaker could outdamage a FK building for it. This seems more like a question about builds rather than anything else.

Ironbreaker can outdamage Foot Knight in melee due to multiple buffs: Blood of Grimnir gives 5–15% melee power, Vengeance provides big attack speed bursts when Gromril breaks, and Drengbarazi Oath grants 20% power to him and allies. Combine that with strong weapons like Coghammer or Greataxe, and he has better melee burst than Foot Knight—though it’s build-specific. I get around 14-18k damage with melee Ironbreaker on standard Cata, vs about 10-12k with Foot Knight on average. With Drakefire, it’s more like 20-25k.

Foot Knight, by contrast, feels limited to being a stagger/tank or a tank that does less damage than other tanks. He has a combo of a level 10 talent and Comrades in Arms to get about 2/3rds of Ironbreaker’s melee damage output. He could use a way to access burst damage when using a heavy two-hander. Maybe a level 25 talent to replace the weak team cooldown on stagger, perhaps something similar to Ironbreaker’s Rising Vengence stacks, but instead triggering on ult and granting melee power?

What’s worse is that Foot Knight isn’t that unique; his ability is cool, but outside that; the gameplay with him gets stale pretty fast; it’s all Stamina and Stagger. Ironbreaker and Priest have more build options and ways to contribute to the team, as well as access to high damage burst options.

@Frostysir

My understanding was that the proposed changes were :

1. New surprise guest effect is a cooldown reduction on the talent.
2. New passive was free bombs on a cooldown shorter than current on paper ult cooldown(realized i had not thought this through earlier)
3. New parting gift effect is just starting with a bomb but nothing else

To me that reads as this :

1. New parting gift is not good, just one starting bomb and that´s it? None would use it unless doing something specific knowing they´d not get bombs.
2. More bombs is just the same powercreep as OE
3. Shorter ability cooldown raises survivability and damage all by itself, add everything else ontop and its a whole lot.

Ok, I’m depending a lot on players understanding the names for talents as read from the wiki, and that can be confusing since we don’t all memorize that; additionally, I’ve worded it confusing.

The ability itself is Disengage. Surprise Guest allows him to move beyond the smoke. I feel that’s a bit weak compared to a free bomb or team attack speed and THP regen. Tourney Mod gives this an extra 30% ability cooldown as well, I proposed 20%.

The other suggestion was to allow Parting Gift to let him start with 1 free bomb in addition to it’s current effects; similar to how Fatshark gave Engineer 2 bombs at the start of a mission for his bomb talent to see some use if he has trouble finding bombs. This happens more often than you might think, especially in quick play if everyone ignores the Ranger Vet, and holds onto the bombs they pick up.

I’ll update the post, as I have been. Let me know if the suggestions look better now if you have time.

[Frostysir]

@Ensrick

Pretty much, but I don’t see how that’s relevant. I think giving double effective range is pretty standard for ranged careers, and I can’t see that making a huge difference; it’d mainly give him good body shots for special sniping like Ranger and Waystalker on Cata; wouldn’t likely effect Legend and below much.

Its relevant because as mentioned, somewhere, the bomb build happens to have good AOE clear = good damage, by virtue of bomb spam, albeit less intrusive such than OE. Buffing that more really easily dunks the other options further down into the waters.

…But yah i am honestly not going to oppose the idea of 2x effective range, feels like it should be alright.

As for OE, i agree with you that its the bomb spam combo that makes the package so heavy, but the reason i advocate against doing all of the proposed stuff to RV isnt because i am against fixing boring talents, more just worried that the chosen method ends up as a fair lot more overall potency. More free bombs, stealth and potions is already a thing all by itself.

@Ensrick

The intent behind Ranger Vet’s damage reduction I believe is to suit a ranged career, but it doesn’t play like that. It’s more up when you’re in melee. Wouldn’t you agree?

The current one has one feature i greatly admire which is the permanent 30% reduction in backstabs, heaven know how many times i´ve died to that playing VS or even Pyro trying to line up shots. And upon further thought, this would be more relevant if he had the range to actually do this more. As for the active effect, sure the greatest value is kinda melee but at the same time its consistent and it doesnt run the risk of either doing nothing or instantly evaporating from specials.

@Ensrick

Ironbreaker can outdamage Foot Knight in melee due to multiple buffs: Blood of Grimnir gives 5–15% melee power, Vengeance provides big attack speed bursts when Gromril breaks, and Drengbarazi Oath grants 20% power to him and allies.

That´s a dang full damage build on the IB giving up everything else, a total of +35% power and 40% attackspeed while active. If FK does the same he also has +35% power and 30% attackspeed, slightly less? But with a big advantage, his ultimate has a 30 seconds cooldown while IB has 120 seconds.

This would mean that any cata horde FK has a permanent buff uptime that should outpace IB pretty significantly as long as he isnt using something like sword&shield while the IB runs around with a coghammer.

@Ensrick

What’s worse is that Foot Knight isn’t that unique; his ability is cool, but outside that; the gameplay with him gets stale pretty fast; it’s all Stamina and Stagger. Ironbreaker and Priest have more build options and ways to contribute to the team, as well as access to high damage burst options.

The only unique thing from my perspective with IB is the fire build, he´s the only tank that does fireworks aside from arguably UC. As for WP, i do not consider him a reasonable balancing benchmark due to the view of him being overtuned.

@Ensrick

The ability itself is Disengage. Surprise Guest allows him to move beyond the smoke. I feel that’s a bit weak compared to a free bomb or team attack speed and THP regen. Tourney Mod gives this an extra 30% ability cooldown as well, I proposed 20%.

The other suggestion was to allow Parting Gift to let him start with 1 free bomb in addition to it’s current effects; similar to how Fatshark g

Ah so it was that those things were added ontop the existing things, alright…that really just runs the risk of powercreep for Parting gift. By juggling his passive and the ability he´d always have 1-2 bombs ready to go. A single one can wipe most of a horde wave and seriously dent most patrols. Free and easy access is very strong as OE proved.

[Ensrick]

@Frostysir

More free bombs, stealth and potions is already a thing all by itself.

I think Tourney Mod nerfs the free potion/bomb on special kill talent. I don’t use it that much, because I like the ale right now. Could help to nerf that perhaps.

@Frostysir

The current one has one feature i greatly admire which is the permanent 30% reduction in backstabs, heaven know how many times i´ve died to that playing VS or even Pyro trying to line up shots.

Fair enough, I suppose I’ll back track on this, though I personally find stacks more consistent and useful.

@Frostysir

That´s a dang full damage build on the IB giving up everything else, a total of +35% power and 40% attackspeed while active.

That’s the idea, I use it often, and he’s still tanky. I’m not asking for the same talents on Foot Knight. Drakefire/Stagger aside I suppose they both have comparable use from level 10 talents. Having a better talent for Foot Knight to do burst damage might be the key.

@Frostysir

If FK does the same he also has +35% power and 30% attackspeed, slightly less? But with a big advantage, his ultimate has a 30 seconds cooldown while IB has 120 seconds.

I think there’s some confusion here, not asking for the same talent on Foot Knight. I think a talent similar to Rising Vengence that some grants melee power instead of attack speed would be cool for burst damage(not suggesting exact numbers).

For the trigger, perhaps using the ult instead of taking damage since Foot Knight doesn’t have Gromil armor; but then of course, it has to be at full stacks to get the full buff, so it shouldn’t be 100% uptime.

@Frostysir

By juggling his passive and the ability he´d always have 1-2 bombs ready to go. A single one can wipe most of a horde wave and seriously dent most patrols.

Good point! I didn’t fully consider that. A way around this could simply be to have Parting Gift also trigger the free item, so if he uses parting gift, he doesn’t also get a free item use allowing him to throw a second bomb.

@Frostysir

The only unique thing from my perspective with IB is the fire build, he´s the only tank that does fireworks aside from arguably UC. As for WP, i do not consider him a reasonable balancing benchmark due to the view of him being overtuned.

Well, I tend to get more damage out of Drakefire pistols than WP. This doesn’t really change the fact that Foot Knight now is the only tank lacking a cool burst damage talent or ability. Additionally, after looking, he has less overall damage mitigation than Ironbreaker and Warrior Priest. I think this is fine because he has a lot of stagger and protective presence, but he definitely is more bland to play than Ironbreaker with Drakefire, and Warrior Priest with Fury. I even find Ironbreaker melee gives me more damage than Foot Knight with the aforementioned talent combo, and he’s still tanky.

I think after the last change to WP, the only thing that stands out is the talent which gives him fury for taking damage also granting a use of his ability. For that, I did suggest a change that should nerf it.

Alternative idea, what if Foot Knights level 15 talents were buffed? That’d certainly make him a bit more unique. Since he’s the stagger guy, perhaps having a passive innate ability that modifies his level 15 talents would be cool?

Maybe he builds stacks with every melee attack that staggers an elite up to 10, then upon reaching 10, using his ult triggers the passive causing his level 15 talent bonus to double for 15 seconds?

Even if I haven’t made a Foot Knight suggestion so far that we could agree on, perhaps we could agree he plays a bit more bland than the other tanks, and perhaps could use a burst damage option like the others?

[Frostysir]

@Ensrick

That’s the idea, I use it often, and he’s still tanky. I’m not asking for the same talents on Foot Knight. Drakefire/Stagger aside I suppose they both have comparable use from level 10 talents. Having a better talent for Foot Knight to do burst damage might be the key.

Vengence can be up a lot but 20% of that bonus power % is from using Drengbarazi Oath ability, FK has about half that passively and the rest if he hits an elite, meaning semi permanently in big fights. I honestly do not see what manner of burst damage IB has that FK doesnt in this context. Attackspeed? Sure Vengence gives 10% more but it has a lesser uptime compared to Bull of Ostland so that shouldnt be it.

@Ensrick

Good point! I didn’t fully consider that. A way around this could simply be to have Parting Gift also trigger the free item, so if he uses parting gift, he doesn’t also get a free item use allowing him to throw a second bomb.

Well something along those lines would do the trick i suppose, albeit that it chaffs a bit to have such poor synergy for it.

@Ensrick

Well, I tend to get more damage out of Drakefire pistols than WP

Well, yah, Horde clear weapons or whatnot do eat up most of the damage over the course of a normal run. That´d be why typically a bomber RV would actually outdamage a longbow Waystalker quite often. Because she doesnt clear waves in one go. But as far as FK lacking burst damage goes, he already has more damage innately than IB when going damage aside from the IB fire build. Same amount of power and much more attackspeed on average.

@Ensrick

Even if I haven’t made a Foot Knight suggestion so far that we could agree on, perhaps we could agree he plays a bit more bland than the other tanks, and perhaps could use a burst damage option like the others?

Well sure there are like 2-3 talents that could be swapped for something more “fun” in concept without major harm done, not that i know what that would be exactly.

[Argonaut14]

@Ensrick

Foot Knight now is the only tank lacking a cool burst damage talent or ability.

I’d like it if enemies he knocked over took a % higher damage from FK, similar to WP getting buff vs CW just because. If Kruber FK puts a CW on his arse he should get to give it a good kicking and he should get to massacre a horde knocked over. It’d be a boost to his damage output purely when using his ult. I’d even accept an increase in cooldown to compensate and would give his boss damage as FK a little boost too.

[Ensrick]

@Frostysir

But as far as FK lacking burst damage goes, he already has more damage innately than IB when going damage aside from the IB fire build. Same amount of power and much more attackspeed on average.

@Frostysir

Vengence can be up a lot but 20% of that bonus power % is from using Drengbarazi Oath ability, FK has about half that passively and the rest if he hits an elite, meaning semi permanently in big fights. I honestly do not see what manner of burst damage IB has that FK doesnt in this context. Attackspeed? Sure Vengence gives 10% more but it has a lesser uptime compared to Bull of Ostland so that shouldnt be it.

It’s not just one or two talents.

You look at the whole entire build from top to bottom, if you’re going for melee damage, Ironbreaker has 5% for each nearby ally; then you get around 24-40% attack speed when gromil is triggered, and you can time Drenbarazi Oath Ult for another 20% power to the entire team for 10s.

With FK it’s 15% power on elite stagger, or 15% attack speed on push, which in a horde, especially on cata are up at least 80% of the time, and you can take Comrades in Arms for another 10% power and buff a nearby ally.

That’s not bad, that’s what I usually do. It’s a solid 25% melee power bonus + he can stagger anything with his ability quite often. That, or you get just a 10% power bonus with Comrades in Arms, but you can keep that 15% attack speed up by pushing in hordes all day.

However, looking at Ironbreaker’s talents, you can expect to have bursts of power up to 35% with occasional bursts of 24-40% attack speed! You can also take rolling mountain so every kill gives you 2% of ability bar back while at full stamina. I use that as well.

After we I post replies here, I have fun playing the game inbetween where I can make time for a match, and yesterday I was doing my best on FK with Bretsword, X-Sword, and today I’ll do more Halberd on regular Cata quickplay. It does feel bland playing FK this way and X-Sword doesn’t synergize much, and he doesn’t have any burst potential.

Another thing, I often take either Drakefire OR Trollhammer on Ironbreaker. If not, then I snipe with Handgun or Crossbow (often XBow since it has higher headshot damage and faster reload with a 15% crit chance bonus on ADS). The Greataxe and Coghammer are also excellent melee weapons with good single target damage; one good for clearing and the other for crowd control. Now with FK, I think Mace+Sword is probably the most powerful (OP IMO), I can’t easily match Ironbreaker’s melee damage, I get maybe 2/3rds of it, and it’s a lot more of a bland playstyle.

That said, Drakefire and Holy Fury are cool mechanics to make Tanks more robust; but FK doesn’t have something comparable. Could use something.

I know you’re an elf main, but I bet you’ve probably played with them a bit. If you go for a refresher on Kruber and Bardin, see what kind of damage you can eek out with a melee build. If that sounds fun, I bet you’ll find Ironbreaker, even without Drakefire tends to get more damage in melee.

@Argonaut14

I’d like it if enemies he knocked over took a % higher damage from FK, similar to WP getting buff vs CW just because. If Kruber FK puts a CW on his arse he should get to give it a good kicking and he should get to massacre a horde knocked over. It’d be a boost to his damage output purely when using his ult. I’d even accept an increase in cooldown to compensate and would give his boss damage as FK a little boost too.

I’ll update the topic to include this suggestion

[Ensrick]

So, just to illustrate my point, here’s Ft Bracksenbruke 4x in a row on Cata with quick play poeple; mostly the same team.

Here are the builds in order left to right:
Foot Knight Mace+Sword and Handgun
Ironbreaker Drakefire Pistols and 1H Axe
Ironbreaker Greataxe and Crossbow
Ranger Veteran Grudgeraker + 1H Axe

I managed to get a nade off on a patrol with Foot Knight. With Greataxe Ironbreaker, I got downed (had the wrong necklace, charm, and XBow trait), but still killed two monsters and racked up solid melee numbers with Vengeance and Greataxe. I could likely do better with him. With Ranger Veteran, I got some juice hits on hordes climbing ledges; still it’s noticeably harder to survive and less damage than Drakefire. With Ranger Vet, got lucky and had a firebomb at the start for Parting Gift, so I got more damage than I usually do with him.

We did have skulls, but even without skulls, these are about the numbers I see on most Cata matches with these types of builds. With about 3 skulls each, we were rushing through pretty fast. The Drakefire build was the easiest and I usually get around 20-24k Damage with them.

I maintain, Foot Knight doesn’t have anything standout like Drakefire or Warrior Priest’s Fury. More importantly, it’s just not as fun. Maybe if he had some kind of fun mechanic to deal burst damage similar to Warrior Priest’s Fury. Perhaps a cool ranged weapon like Outrider Grenade Launcher that’s a slightly more lightweight version of a Trollhammer; a bit like Darktide’s Ogryn Grenade Gauntlet; I think a lot of players would love that.

Now, not everyone can pull off a DPS Drakefire Ironbreaker tank and rack up numbers while also getting melee kills with 1H Axe, or Greataxe so I wouldn’t say he’s overpowered; Drakefire gives up special sniping and he’s less tanky without a shield. Still, with Ranger Vet, I was all in on offense with his highest DPS weaopn, and like usual, even playing well, he’s not quite up there wiht the other 100hp careers. (Some games on the newer missions with tougher events, I often get 30-40k with drakefire pistols, never get that damage with Grudgeraker)

I know with Waystalker, even with Longbow + Dual Swords, I’m gonna get about that much damage, mianly because I can spam the ability with cooldown talents. With just about any other damage focused career, I can tend to get about 25k, and most specials/elite kills; unless there’s another player in the lobby who’s been around as long as we have.

I’ll also add that most players now are just DPSing and sniping. I was playing with Saltz (Zealot and Bounty Hunter), Pyromancer, Kruber (Grail Kngiht and Merc) and they were going for those juicy kills. It really does seem like maybe Foot Knight has been left behind, partly due to power creep, and partly due to new shiny DLC careers, and weapons DLCs.

EDIT BONUS:
Here’s a Halescourge game with Waystalker. I rarely play Waystalker, I was able to get my ability off sometimes 2-3x per wave. This time I was playing with two more experienced players going for CC, one Merc XSword, and one Lingering Flames Flamethrower Staff Battle Wizard.

Longbow + Dual Swords

[Frostysir]

@Ensrick

With FK it’s 15% power on elite stagger, or 15% attack speed on push, which in a horde, especially on cata are up at least 80% of the time, and you can take Comrades in Arms for another 10% power and buff a nearby ally.

What about Bull Of Ostland? That´s a free 30% attackspeed every like 10-15 seconds when in a horde fight. I was trying to state this earlier but during such, FK has the same amount of bonus % power as IB and only 10% less attackspeed but at a far better uptime.

@Ensrick

Now with FK, I think Mace+Sword is probably the most powerful (OP IMO), I can’t easily match Ironbreaker’s melee damage, I get maybe 2/3rds of it, and it’s a lot more of a bland playstyle.

This i do agree with, Mace&sword is likely among the best of what uses pure stat boosts in his kit and the weapon is a bit bland.

@Ensrick

I know you’re an elf main, but I bet you’ve probably played with them a bit. If you go for a refresher on Kruber and Bardin…"

Challenge accepted :

…Aaaaand the example i got ended up rather skewed, dang it but it was late last night. oh well. The OE was a bit of a clutz and struggled, and the WP was lagging hard, so it was me trying to compete with the Necro for the most part. Shall do a few more attempts

[Ensrick]

I think you’re missing the point. Those numbers are higher accross the board as this mission pours in enemies at the part where you defend the burning warehouse. DLC missions tend to be more difficult and have longer events. I should’ve included the team stats so you could compare. You see with an offensive build on Ft Knight you got 26k compared to Necro’s 37k. That’s not to downplay what you got, he’s decent in melee. Still, if I do this mission with Drakefire Ironbreaker it’d be extremely skewed. I have a number of times, and the warehouse part is free damage for Drakefire, likely why the witch got 37k.

If you could pick a short easy predictable mission like I did with Ft Braksenbruke and do it with a Ft Knight and then Ironbreaker with melee builds. Maybe even try my Waystalker and Ranger Vet builds, see how the damage compares; because even with a Longbow, I’m typically doing more damage with Wayastalker than I ever do with Ranger Veteran.

As we were speeding through the mission in all examples both Ironbreaker and Ft Knight were at roughly over a quarter of the damage for the whole team combined using melee. With Drakefire, the damage and numbers in general were more than double any individual players damage with most elite/special kills, and that was higher than Ranger Vet Grudgeraker.

It’s not a challenge so much as it is to illustrate how these careers compare. For a tank, Drakefire Ironbreaker is going to be a safer choice than Ranger, and I can still handle specials/elites well enough in melee, and clear hordes. Likewise, even Longbow Waystalker typically will have more damage if I specialize for ult cool down; the ult can help with hordes, elites, and monsters with little effort.

About Bull of Ostland. It gives an attack speed boost at the expense of Battering Ram. I think you might get about as much melee damage with double staggered enemies chaos warriors.

That said, let’s say Foot Knight is more damage than Ironbreaker without Drakefire, it’s not by much. I also didn’t use trollhammer. If a player is trying to choose between a tank, Warrior Priest, Ironbreaker and Foot Knight, and wants to try something new, you got a few builds with Foot Knight that could go for stagger, one for a bit of melee power or a bit of crowd clearing.

Now you take Ironbreaker, you can do uber aggro tanking with stagger, you can pick between two Drakefire weapons, you can go for a melee damage dealing build, or you can use the Trollhammer to help with monsters clusters of elites at the expense of sniping specials. The career is all around more flexible, and has more options.

With Warrior Priest, you got a tome and hammer for cool AoE attacks, you can Flail+Shield or Greathammer to stagger and clear out hordes and elites alike. You have Fury to do bursts of damage every horde.

I’ll reiterate, Drakefire and Holy Fury offer the ability to give tanks something fun to deal damage. I feel Foot Knight could use a similar unique burst ability, and maybe a cool new ranged option like a grenade launcher. There’s more unique effective build options. Foot Knight is a little bland. I like the career, but most of the time, the others are more fun.

[Frostysir]

Had a bit of luck, was able to run Righteous Stand and Convo of Deacy with nearly the same team (one swap) while using FK and IB respectively. Used 2 skulls each.

The outcome was that the first map was a fair bit slower in pace so numbers got padded but in terms of effectiveness i actually did not really feel much difference between the two tanks if going pure melee madness. IB was tankier but he lacked the control that FK charge spam brings which was felt when dealing with a lot of elites. The teamcomp was my FK/IB + UC, WP and a RV(2nd map a WS) and none really had particularly strong clearing setups which…let me top damage both times? Mildly unexpected but i´ll chalk that up to chance.

So it boils down to what you noted, the special features like fire for IB and WP fury which FK does lack any outstanding ones. A flamethrower IB would hog much more horde damage and outpace a FK in most such cases.

@Ensrick

even Longbow Waystalker typically will have more damage if I specialize for ult cool down; the ult can help with hordes, elites, and monsters with little effort.

I mean, didnt you at some point go like “Huntsman is squishy if he goes full damage or has no ammo regen” but then you go full damage on the elf and act like this when full damage delivers? O_O

Sure using trueflight spam is a very…low effort, decent reward kinda deal but it also hinges on player skill to not need that regen and actually endure melee with what is effectively a weakened setup.

@Ensrick

The career is all around more flexible, and has more options.

IB has better build flexibility…yes, i agree, he does. But given how problematic trollhammer has proven i am not sure giving FK an equivalent is a good plan. Nor can i really immidiately come up with any equivalent to the fire ones.

@Ensrick

There’s more unique effective build options. Foot Knight is a little bland. I like the career, but most of the time, the others are more fun.

Yah Kruber is for the most part very simplistic and it woulda been nice to have some flair here and there, i mean he is supposed to be better than Saltz at Swordplay if nothing else.