Incredible how, instead of reworking Huntsman as promised, now you even nerfed him

Sure, but Huntsman isn’t the only one who can do that. BH with griffonfoot wipes hordes even harder, crossbow deals wipes every elite/special, WS has hagbane/longbow/piercing shot, beam staff necro and many many more ranged careers that wipe the enemy type they are good at wiping.
Huntsman isn’t even that bad since whatever he picks, he’ll lack DPS against something else, i.e. no wiping all elites, hordes and monsters on a single build. Then you have OE with Trollhammer and Linked Compression Chamber + Perilous Overclock, who wipes everything with ridiculous thp gain and safety on shield and for some reason +25 base hp.

Yes, and WS doesn’t struggle for ammo either. BH has easy ammo too, so does RV, Sienna has overcharge, BW ridiculous thp on stagger, and Necro has skeletons for venting, etc.
And I’d say all of them make small or no sacrifices for infinite ammo. Like BH skips Hunter, and WS Loaded Bow, but Huntsman skips 40% DR. I’d say Shot Crafter is stronger than most other ammo regens, but not to a point where it’d be unbalanced in comparison to other careers.

I guess, but wouldn’t that just be a sort of meaningless nerf, like instead of having ∞ ammo, Huntsman will have ∞-1 ammo?
As in, I don’t see myself skipping Shot Crafter because of such small nerf, especially that in the listed game modes I personally find that I don’t have too much time to do melee since there are always elites/specials to shoot, so I wouldn’t rely on melee ammo regen when I have perfectly viable ranged option to do so.

I guess such a tool for ammo sustain could be good for new players, changing up the meta for them.

I’d say it’s a matter of using your ult when you have an angle - standing behind a teammate who’s dodge dancing a monster, if a patrol is coming straight at you than it’s just shooting at easy targets, and I’d say ability to 1-shot headshot a CW with a crit or 2-shot without is pretty significant damage, with concoction it’s just 1-shot headshot no crit.
And even when ult isn’t up, 1 crit headshot + 1 non-crit headshot and CW is dead, which has a very high likelihood of occurring if your first shot is already boosted with 35% crit.
Besides, it’s not like Huntsman uniquely needs good positioning to do well vs CWs or monsters when it comes down to ranged careers (ignoring the fact that some are pretty bad vs CWs regardless of the build),

As an extra, both Blunderbuss and Repeater don’t really require any special positioning like Longbow.

  1. CWs outside of Twitch are very rare; this includes deeds and twins, so performance against those is of questionable importance.
  2. Repeater Handgun is admittedly useless against CWs, but with a STR pot/concotion, you can still kill 2 CWs per 1 drum.
  3. Blunderbuss straight up kills CWs in 3-4 shots on ult, with concoction it 1-shots them.
  4. About concoction - Blend In + CDR trinket returns you a single ult in 5s, giving you 12s of ult, of which 5s are STR and Speed pot boosted - very strong and accessible (since any pot).

Invisibility is not necessary at all, regardless of difficulty, it simply makes things easier at the cost of worse ult uptime.

True for Handgun, I agree that it has pretty poor synergy with Hunstman outside of being simply easy to use.
However, with Repeater, you are supposed to just spam while aiming at more or less chest height, and you’ll score headshots, no need to aim or be precise, just unload, and you’ll score one. You give up nothing.

A sure critical. If you wait 10s/6s/get a melee kill
A sure double arrow. If you get a melee kill.

Huntsman gets a consistent and powerful buff without having to go in melee or waiting, but only if he headshots.
And yes, this buff may not be useful if an enemy would die without it (headshot/low hp), but the same goes for BH’s crits or WS’ bloodshot.
So Huntsman’s buff isn’t guaranteed like the other two, but it has the highest uptime without needing to do melee. And the higher the difficulty, the more relevant this becomes.

Besides what I wrote a few paragraphs above,
WS’ piercing shot requires very good angles and positioning too, as well as perfect aim, while the standard version does nothing vs CWs or Monsters.

BH’s ult either gets to deal decent damage vs monster once or kill a single elite or needs a pot and at that point he needs to headshot and position well.

During his ult, Huntsman can kill more than BH and requires less perfection than WS.

All of them need good angles and positioning to be effective vs monsters or CWs, with the exception of Hagbane WS vs monsters, but she has a few other drawbacks.

Outside of Ult or Pots, both are pretty much limp vs CWs and only decent vs monsters, while LB Huntsman can still 2-3 shot CWs and has much better monster DPS, at the cost of being worse against other elites and specials since he has lower fire rate than Elf’s LB or X-bow.

Pretty much. The amount of ammo isn’t an issue, just the way it’s obtained.
If players want more ammo sustain, they’ll still take the ammo talents and/or traits.
Hypothetically, if you want to run Hunter Longbow + Thick Hide, it’s possible now without being starved for ammo. But you’ll be forced to hit heads and melee more; it’s a fair trade off.


Other ranged careers can’t really afford to do that, WS is locked into Kurnous’ Reward. BH is locked into Scrounger. RV can get by without Grungni’s Cunning, it’s just a hard sell. They have “feast or famine” levels of ammo sustain.

Dunno mate, fee all things that work on paper only. Game’s reality is much different. Even with the perfect team and maximum cooperation, it’s not always possible. Imagine with an average team. You won’t never have the full control… not even if you’re an aimbot (and none of us is an aimbot)

I would not say “very rare”… but anyway CWs are the enemies (disablers apart) wich can apply the highest pressure; being bad against them, it’s not a lil thing

I don’t know at wich difficulty you’re playing, but if you’re surrounded and you use the ult to kill a special, then you must come back to melee to defend yourself… are very common situations

Sorry but sounds like another thing that works on paper only… you spam at chest, maybe the aim go to the head, maybe the +% crit works… cmon, can work sometimes, but it’s not a weapon meant to play around headshots. It’s enough to think that you don’t have to directly aim heads, but you have to let recoil do it (randomly) for you

Here I can just say “I don’t agree”… I feel BH and WS way more strong and solid. But anyway my criticism went beyond a mere comparison with Blessed and Double Shot.

Maybe you got me wrong, I was NOT comparing HS ult with WS and BH ult… they’re too much different

Of course, sometimes it’s impossible to make full use of the ult or get a good angle vs a monster or patrol. Thankfully, ult lasts 6s, so that’s all the time you need to find to make use of it. Spam push and light 1 & 2 of sword and mace, do a few sweeps with spear, shield bash, find a teammate to get behind, etc.

Sometimes you won’t make 100% use of the possible power on ult, and sometimes you will. Just like with everything else in the game, you may throw a bomb that kills 10 CWs, or sometimes you’ll miss and get only one.

Mercenary Mace & Sword; Footknight Spear & Shield; Bounty Hunter Griffonfoot; Waystalker Longbow (Kurnous’ Reward); Waystalker Hagbane; RV MWP; Battle Wizard Beam Staff.

Just a few meta builds off the top of my head that don’t kill CWs well, with some of them doing it well with ult/consumables, which means that if there is more than one, they have to go ahead and bash them in melee for a long time, usually alongside the rest of the team.
And if we are talking about a single CW inside a horde (which is admittedly very disruptive), Huntsman ult + Repeater Handgun will also kill it.

And no, CWs are very rare, they don’t spawn in hordes, unlike all other elites. They spawn in three cases:

  • Roaming Enemies - if a horde isn’t around, these are irrelevant, since they just get bursted by everyone; if there is a horde, they become dangerous, but they are still singular enemies, and in our case, a single ult will be enough to take down one, which some meta builds won’t do.
  • Patrol - here they are a big threat, but patrols can be avoided, or what usually happens, everyone and their mother spams bombs and potions to annihilate it. And if that isn’t available, then again, there are plenty of meta builds that struggle vs mass CWs, so the team just takes some time to whittle it down.
  • Events - these are dangerous spawns but limited to certain maps, sometimes it’s 2, sometimes 5. And again, many meta builds will take some time to take them down.

As for how rare they are, I’ve just rewatched yesterday’s game on Cata Twitch Hunger in the Dark, during a ~25min game we killed 151 elites, out of which I’ve counted 30 chaos warriors. That’s a lot right? But:

  • 12 came from a patrol that we intentionally pulled at the start of the game.
  • The rest came from a Twitch spawn near the end.

Had this been a non-twitch game and had we not pulled a patrol, we’d have fought 0 Chaos Warriors that run.
We did it with WS Hagbane, Merc BretSword, and WHC Rapier Flense + Fervency and RV bot, i.e. decent team comp for killing them, but nothing amazing vs super armour.

I’ve also just run a quick normal cata Against the Grain, with bots and this time encountered ~14 CWs as either standard roaming enemies or those spawned around the end event farm. In total, there were 141 elites that game.

I could examine a few randomly picked games from the past and the results would always point to the fact that CWs are rare and most you’ll encounter are standard roaming ones, which are harmless without hordes.

Yes, you’re surrounded, and either do nothing and wait with invisibility or you kill a special and do melee. If you are running the invisibility talent, then you get to shoot during this time, which is the advantage of the talent.
But it’s not a necessary ability, since not getting surrounded can be avoided by positioning in places where enemies don’t spawn behind you and sticking to a teammate. Sometimes it obviously isn’t possible, regardless of what you do, and in those cases, constant invis is good.

But on the other hand, what does Waystalker, Bounty Hunter or Pyromancer do when they get surrounded? No mass stagger ult, no invisibility ult.
Huntsman gets invisibility even without that talent, and also has a shield weapon, or for example, Mace & Sword with good stagger and high attack speed.
Presumably, other ranged careers that don’t get an escape button or those that don’t have weapons that can cause mass stagger when surrounded, don’t just die every game all the time for some reason, despite the common situation of being surrounded.
So, Huntsman doesn’t need to use prolonged invisibility talent if he has invisibility by default and otherwise good weapons for staggering himself out of an encirclement.

TLDR: you can run invis talent and be better when you get surrounded, but plenty of careers manage without invis or high stagger weapons/ults, and Huntsman still gets base invis and high stagger weapons, so the invis talent is not necessary even in those situations

You spam more or less in the direction of the enemies, above their stomach, it’s very simple. I can also make clips of this with players and not bots.


My point is that they all need good positioning to take advantage of their ult and other tools, and if we are not complaining about those careers, then why complain about Huntsman’s need for positioning to take advantage of his ult?

I still can’t agree, but thanks for sharing your opinion

To be honest, I’m not the biggest fan of stealth, especially perma stealth; It can be cheesy and anti-fun at times. Concealed Strikes can be especially anti-fun to play with, relative to other stealth ults.

But I get the appeal of it, it enables Huntsman to do Huntsman things without the need to create room or be babysit like Engineer.
BH, WS & Pyro don’t really have this issue because they’re instantaneous “one and done” ults.

Here’s my suggestions:

  • Remove the dodge and movement penalties of Prowl.
  • Maybe remove Concealed Strikes perma stealth.
  • Lower the cooldown.
  • Add stagger upon exiting invis. (Regardless of talent)

Here’s a couple examples of what that might look like (Slayer Leap stagger & radius, no crunch)