Hookrats, bookrats and cookrats

Whats the idea behind being unable to dodge hookrat back?
Force player dodge left and right when surrounded by incoming horde and its literally unreal at most situations? And this bastard literally walking through 9000 stacked slave rats and grabs you in even if you press left/right + space cause theres no space to dodge?

Disablers so bad designed in this game. Like they really need some changes. First example is hookrat, coming through horde, and impossible to dodge back. Are disablers forcing you to kill horde in a blink of an eye or they forcing you to stick together cause basically not all of us are ideal V2 players?

Second example is assassin. If its skill determined being able to dodge and kill assassin, make him attack at least after 5 seconds after spawning, just as you did to gas rats. There were at least million situations me killing assassin rat already pouncing someone and after that hearing “Yes yes, swarm them…” This is so screwed.

And being pounced/grabbed while horde incoming almost 80% time make squishes fall cause horde will attack disabled person. And then, being punced/grabbed while there’s no enemies around makes NOTHING. Whats the reason? I dont know.

It would make sense to make hookrats and gutter runners deal % dmg of target’s heath, for example

Gutter runner

  • 5% hp on connect
  • 10% hp per second while disabled
  • ignored by other foes

pretty much same for packmasters, but bit more punishable damage on connection cause of easier dodge

Packmaster

  • 15% hp on connect
  • 10% hp per second while disabled
  • ignored by other foes

This would make sense, cause

  • It will hurt if there’s no other enemies near
  • It will hurt if you are too far from teammates to save you
  • It will not insta kill you cause of incoming wave
  • It will make no difference if the IB being grabbed into wave, or WS, punish will be pretty much the same, while as is IB will survive most likely, and WS will be downed or even killed most likely.
  • It will make talents “reduced incoming damage when disabled by 50%” actually viable.

Discuss, offer idea how to make life leech actually a threat

p.s. if you dont feel like being able to dodge hookrat backwards is a thing need to be implemented think how stupid is idea to have boss+wave+specials then.

he ran all the way through town to get you, and you think he’s not ready to take two more steps because you jumped back a little?

5 Likes

More likely he appeared from nowhere in my sight 20 meters forward, but was blocked by slaverats?

I think being able to dodge them backwards would make packmasters way too easy to avoid. They would cease to be a threat.

If you can’t dodge sideways, you might be getting too pinned down by hordes. Using pushed and dodging side to side frequently help to preserve space, and if you do get surrounded you can create space when the packmaster is coming. A couple shoves or attacks, ult, etc. Call out the packmaster in voice chat so everyone is ready to focus it and burst it down.

The main problem with packmaster is their ability to completely ignore the slot system and grab you through any number of enemies, heck I’ve had them grab me through bosses a few times. That combined with occasional audio or spawn bugs is really a pain.

It’s not stupid, it’s a challenge. A horde without specials would be boring AF.

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They’re actually the best designed and most original specials. Just keep practicing on melee killing them everytime you spot a lone one and you’ll be able to deal with them in no time during hordes.
Few things are more satisfying then rushing a packmaster head-on or baiting an assassin into your push range in this game.

Im not a fan either, it a very unsatisfyingand demoralizing way of loosing, especially on those otherwise perfect balanced games where it is just on the edge.
There is plenty of other things they could do with them, the gutter runner could just jump you and do a flat dmg and then quickly jump away again.
The packmaster should do something related to, well the pack, like unending spawning hordes while they are in play, or a global hore buff.
Thats just how i would prefer it, but i have never been a fan of mechanics that removes a players ability to actually play.

Their design is fine in a vaccum (and maybe in VT1), but it’s really not in VT2. They do need some tweaking. Everyone keeps claiming “lulz learn 2 dodge”, yet all I see in almost any game is them just completely blending into hordes, yoinking one of the frontliners and even 1 second of being grabbed means tons of damage. You need the right abilities and weapons in a horde, if you don’t have those, the packmaster is virtually untouchable, especially by melee attacks in this oh-so melee focused game. I am fine with them being dangerous in hordes - then again, that’s not a packmaster exclusive. None of the specials are dangerous on their own. Considering how much abuse it can take, how well covered it is because it is behind the grabbed, how ridicilously fast it moves even after the grab, how much he blends into hordes, how insanely resistant to stagger and knockdown it is, and how punishing even a one second grab is, the packmaster just stands out too much from the other specials.
Again, look at L4D2 and the jockey, that worked pretty much the same: It is sturdy, it kinda blends into hordes because of its short stature, it pulls you away. But the jockey didn’t have that insane resistance against stagger. One you got grabbed, it was on the grabbed character’s head, making it a better target, and most importantly, the player could struggle against the jockey’s directions (paired with the fact that disabled characters received reduced damage from mobs).
I know people will defend anything that makes the game more difficult till the bitter end, but I’d like to again refer to precedence with the globadier: The globadier is still dangerous and denies areas effectively. But by removing the first damage tick and making the damage and AoE increase over time, they gave players a fighting chance instead of dealing out unavoidable damage with pinpoint accuracy. Difficulty and challenge must always be reasonable and avoidable by skill. Everyone and their uncle claims they are the master-dodgers and never ever fall for getting yoinked from a horde-master, yet I have yet to witness this awesome level of prescience in action. It doesn’t happen THAT often to me, but it happens often enough that I always take this into consideration when playing carreers like Slayer.
I like specials to be dangerous, but the packmaster is just too random and sometimes simply unavoidable - and for something like that, it’s simply too punishing.

3 Likes

Yeah this is a serious problem in my opinion.

That and the Spawned behind you less than 10 feet and insta ganked you the minute it spawns.

I’ve seen that so many times.

Challenge is one thing… Cheeze is another.

And the Hookrat is the cheeziest of all in this game. In V1 they were legit… in V2 they’re nothing but cheeze.

1 Like

The only time they’re too punishing is on legend. If you can’t dodge them consistently, then maybe you need more practice. I’m not claiming to be able to dodge every disabler but when I do get grabbed/pounced, more then 9 out of 10 times it’s either because of me screwing up or spawn and sound bugs.

No, they dont. If you miss moment for dodge, you still be hooked. They are not much of a threat anyways without cheese from AI Director. Only thing it would change, is increasing your chance to dodge it when you see him and ready to dodge when total mess happens. Smth like Stormfiend in wide area, with spread horde (3-4 points where they come to play area) and bunch of specials.

So, how it happens most times. You have horde coming from corridor, stacked af, and a sneaky cheezy rat coming through it. It most likely being killed w/o announcement and tag by some range firing into horde. It may even come behind you undetected and grab someone, making NOTHING. Like it dont do stuff on themselves. Thats a horde/elite killing you through which body you was grabbed.
And then, you have ambush somewhere in Athen Yenlui in the middle of the forest, no wall around, rats coming from all sides, and as a result, players watching their own sides. This bastard spawns right behind that tree 10 meters from you, without announcement, marching to you. You seeing him 1-2 seconds before impact, getting ready to dodge, only to find there’s no space to do so, cause there’re rats around? Why the hell I cant dodge hook by dodging back?

Man, open your eyes. I said boss+horde+specials. You talking about horde+specials.

Call smth that grabbing you through chaos warrior being undetected and not announced by heroes? Good job suggesting such a solution.

Dude, if you have nothing useful, or related to thread, better say nothing.
The few heroes bring useful stuff to deal with packmaster blend into horde are FK, shade, hunter. Low cd stun and quickswap to oneshot it with handgun for FK whily staying completely safe cause all slaverats knocked down too, shade with “killing everythin” button and huntsman cause of initial invisibility and ability to oneshot as well.

Havent seen lots alive “heroes” rushing into hookrat blended into horde with an eye to kill it in melee without being rekt by slaverats, hookrat, or both. Would be very useful, if you, such a master killing hookrats with melee in horde, will make a video how to actually do it. My experience is that even ranged struggle with piercing bunch of slaves to slay packmaster, until its 2-3 men firing into same spot, or its a lucky crit.

2 Likes

Btw, making them into slot system will not change much.

  • As I said before, if it blends into “corridor wave”, it will be killed. If it not blends into “corridor wave”, it will be killed even faster.
  • If its spread horde, it will reach you anyways
  • If its behind elites, it will reach too cause of hook range

Ok, here’s something usefull, git gud.

3 Likes

Here is a great little video someone posted today, it describes one of the aspect of “fair and challenging” hookrats enjoy it.

2 Likes

Precisely.

Inb4 “lul positioning wuz bad ez hookrat is ez”.

U forgot “Easiest hookrat of my life!!!” aka easies money of my life!

Ez h00krat, ez life.

The only issue I consistently have with hookrats is the dodge window is either too small or too inconsistent. I dodge to the sides the instant the hookrat is close enough to wind up (trying to hit that frame as close as possible).

Could be a latency issue depending on the host since sometimes I can dodge them effortlessly the entire map and other times I feel like I hit the window perfectly, am a few feet to their sides when they strike and then get rubber banded or they auto-turn into me.

Why not join the Fatshark Discord https://discord.gg/K6gyMpu