Hookrats and Hordes

Okay, I know I’m not the only one that’s had problems with this, but if a Hook Rat spawns during a horde, it’s a serious problem currently. They are the same size as the slaves, with pretty similar/blending colors, looking like a clan rat almost during the horde. This normally wouldn’t be a problem, if they couldn’t hook you through 20+ slaves between you and them, or through/around corners. Right now it feels like they are lunging a door sized cube of a hitbox at you. Dodging the hook with actual dodge maneuvers feels less like skill and more like sheer luck. And the worst part is, if they hook you, from beyond the physical model of the hook, it pulls you TO the hooks model and clipped into those rats it hit you through.

Seriously, make them need a CLEAR attack line to hook you through, make them more noticeable, and please, for the love of god, make them TALLER than clan rats/slaves, so that it’s not an instant 'it’s safe while completely debilitating a party member.

Gutter Runners push enemies away from them when they pounce by knocking them away, giving a ‘window’ to get them off your buddy. Hook rats don’t.

Gutter Runners have a loud spawn sound. Hook Rats, don’t.

Blightstormers chant loudly and have a ‘channel time’ to counter them. Hook Rats don’t.

Leeches teleport to you, very loudly to announce they are there. Hook Rats jingle slightly but not distinctly over other sounds of combat.

And of all the ‘disabler’ specials, only the hook rat can move you to other areas and leave you to go get a buddy, they can even hook you from higher positions and pull you back up there, and away, from your allies.

Please just, make them more noticeable like other specials are, and give us some counter lay to them. Hell they are near immune to stagger and have storm vermin levels of effective health (2+ power attacks with a falchion doesn’t kill it, but will behead a storm vermin on the same difficulty)

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I agree… packmaster between hordes is too much rng.

I’ve been playing dwarf with Grudgeraker and sometimes packmasters will survive a double blast to the face at point-blank range, which seems a bit ridiculous seeing as how that same double blast could kill an entire horde or seriously thin out a patrol of stormvermin. I think if they tweak that and fix the clipping issues that would help a lot.

I think I’m okay with their audio queues, it’s true their jingle isn’t super loud but it IS distinct from other combat sounds. Plus they talk a lot “Catchcatchcatchcatchcatch” and such things.

You can prepare a lot sooner for them then other specials since they’re slower. Here’s some advice, try pinging through hordes.
Seriously, packrats are the easiest specials in the game.

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You can’t prepare for them ‘alot sooner’ if they spawn DURING a horde, or while a patrol is moving, as patrol sounds drown out alot of others.

On the ‘Catchcatchcatchcatchcatch’ bit, yes it is notable at MOST times, but not when dealing with a horde, or with a patrol near by, the hook rat sounds are drowned out alot by other, ‘closer’ sounds.

Yes, I like that hook rats can be dangerous, but it shouldn’t feel like ‘luck’ with dodging the hooks, or like a kick in the groin if they spawn during a horde as they blend in so well (nothing really ‘shines’ on them like with storm vermin, no pale skin and black head as well as being taller like with maulers, no bright glowing things or low hunched position like with gutter runners or the ‘ranged’ specials, no bright white/copper mixed colors and giant back packs like with gas rats) and ‘spam your call out key’ shouldn’t be considered a ‘counter’ to them, especially since callouts have a hard capped cool down per character, so if you’ve tagged other specials/elites, then your ‘counter’ is made unusable.

TL:DR I’m fine with them hooking and dragging people off, but it shouldn’t feel ‘cheep’ and they shouldn’t blend in so well as to make the gutter runner ninja rats look about as stealthy as a bunch of Narutards at a mall

Imo they are top threat between specials just because of how tanky they are.
It’s ridiculous for their size. Resilient and hard to hit.

I like it because it encourages strategic positioning and punishes you if you’re too aggro. They’re harder to spot in V2 though. Kings what the bit sticking out the top of an was more pronounced and they need to be made a lil louder in V2.

They wouldn’t be so bad if they couldn’t noclip catch you, maybe have them ‘hook’ the first thing the obnoxiously large hit box for that thing collides with, friend or foe instead of being able to hook you from 10 ft away through no fewer than a dozen flailing bodies, or if they didn’t have more health than all other specials, I mean I can one shot most specials/elites with Witch Hunter Captain using a crossbow, with just a meat shot quick fire, Hook rats REQUIRE a head-shot for some reason to do the same, they’ve more, effective, HP than Storm Vermin who’re in a ton of armor, and also don’t have the ability to INSTANTLY incapacitate some one.

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It does require a suspension of disbelief that these skinny naked runners are so tanky. It seems to be exclusively so they can run with a horde without the heroes killing it accidentally before it has a chance to hook. Having to spam t while fighting a horde is a bit silly.

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i don’t agree with this post. hookrats are sneaky buggers and are meant to blend in with other rats and are a menace to entrenched parties - that’s their thing, otherwise nobody’s going to break apart an entrenched party under cover.

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While I agree with the OP, I don’t see a way of nerfing hookrats without making them useless. The only thing
(that comes to my mind - adding them a japanese-style battle banner for easier spotting in a wave, but this solution feels cheap.

Anyway, imho, they are too much resistent… bow, handgun, shotguns… no one can bodyshot them. Also packmaster are covered by horde.

You forgot how resistant they are to stagger.

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Some things in general are just weird with special/boss interaction and hordes.
Why do the summoned tornados affect hordes, but boss smashes dont?

As it is, I play mostly piercing ranged weapons so I can kinda deal with it.

Boss smashes do. You can kill everything by kiting a boss. If the smash isn’t hitting mobs, it’s bugged.

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I heard Chaos Spawn smash was bugged in that regard. Not sure though. Might have been fixed also.

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Gunner will mess you up if your ‘entrenched’ during a horde, same with ‘tank’ enemies (Chaos Spawn, Biletrolls, Rat Ogre, and Stormfiend) as will a blightstormer tornado.

The thing with all of those enemies though, they mess up the horde to get at you, hook rats simply don’t.

Outside the ‘tanks’ one body shot with a number of weapons, hook rats…good luck with that

Those others have clearly notable/easily seen appearances in a horde… hook rats… don’t

They all have skill based counter-able game play if your paying attention to them. Hookrats feel like a sucker punch.

Hookrats should EITHER be larger to denote their durability, or have much less HP. Make it more clear what their actual role is, as currently it’s like a kick in the pants is their role. No other special can drag a player away, or have reach to snag them. Leeches I guess, sure, but they have maybe half the hp of a hook rat and over twice the size/presence with their loud sounds. During a horde, if your up in the front, in that see of chaos and flailing bodies, the meaty clunks and thunks of butchering the forces of chaos and skaven, the tinks and pings of you blocking them and their shields blocking you, the audio cue for a Hookrat is pretty non existent

The only issue I have with this is that it further exacerbates the weakness of melee vs range. Why take the chance to cleave down a horde in melee, even if I can, if I’m risking stray hits, or worst, getting grabbed by a packmaster? Even if my allies are on the ball, hell even if my own attack hits him as he grabs me and breaks the grab, the fraction of a second spent grabbed WILL down me and probably fully kill me if the horde was thick enough.
If I’m playing range, I can just flame down / burn down / shoot down the horde, or most of it and finish a few stragglers in melee without risking being grabbed or pounced in a position that results in instant death.

I could swear VT1 reduced the damage you take when you’re grabbed, pounced or down, but in this, especially in Legend, it’s instant full death.

Even while PBAOEing a horde on Sienna from beyond melee range, I’m extremely cautious of them. Since the hordes are so much bigger in V2, the packmasters are harder to see/hear in general and devastatingly lethal since getting hooked is a lot of guaranteed dmg taken.

There just aren’t nearly as many mobs in hordes in V1 ever. V2 hordes are to V1 hordes as V1 hordes are to your average hack and slash.

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No one has mentioned any tips on career skills that can easily deal with hook rats. such as FK charge, can charge the packmaster making him drop the hooked target,aswell as knocking the packmaster down so it lays down for 2 seconds or more so you can easily kill it. not only does it knock down the packmaster also all the horde around it.

Same goes for WHC Animosity,Merc Kruber Morale Boost, Ironbreaker Impenetrable.

With that said, I do agree that the sound of the packmaster should be made louder so that you at least get the sound que for it.

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