Handmaiden&elf weapon discussion

@Velsix @Adelion @Saryk

Lets chat here to avoid cluttering the other thread!

(Copied from the other thread)
1h Sword has decent bodyshot armour damage on heavies. Just needs a buff to infantry damage in exchange for some of its dodges and it will be a great weapon.

Dual Swords are very tiring to use, but are also super safe unlike some of these other weapons. At least they cleave armour.

Dual Daggers have the highest single target dps. An extremist weapon has to pay a price somewhere.

Spear isn’t any weaker to shields than any other weapon, but I agree that it’s poor in mixed situations. Having only 3 dodges doesn’t help.

Glaive’s light attacks deal pathetic damage to armour even on headshot (with Smiter it’s 17 light bodyshots/9 headshots for SV, definitely needs an increase here). It’s very much limited to using heavy attacks to kill elites and is otherwise a worse Exec.

2h Sword has a horizontal attack but it’s locked behind the heavy stab + its stats aren’t much better than the lights. Strange weapon overall. I’d like to see that horizontal sweep cleave armour and Heavy Linesmen added to the horizontal sweep.

Asrai Alacrity is pretty overpowered on weapons with good push attacks (you can also just push then light or heavy instead wasting the buff on a push attack if it’s not good for the moment).

It’s okay. It’s more effort than talents like FK’s Have At Thee yet yields the same reward, and being deactivated by even 1 friendly fire damage is just silly. I still use it for style points but 15%?
I miss Eldrazor’s Precision. Would have gladly taken -10% attack speed for the power buff (would mesh with a slower and more precise elf playstyle, though that playstyle is as rare as a Saltz that isn’t flailing his arms randomly).

Avoiding damage constantly is a suboptimal play. Needing to revive in gas, distant ratling you can’t focus on yet, Rasknitt’s lightning attacks, Sienna/team ff etc. I’m also not so sure about the need to spec for specific Bladedancer breakpoints. Unless you’re running ahead, won’t your team damage the enemies you applied bleed to as they are bleeding, meaning they’ll logically die with just the base bleed damage in the same amount of time?

Are you both implying that Gift of Ladrielle needs a buff?

She can chose them without any downsides. Unless you mean by downsides “not being able to chose another talent in that row”. Which is not a downside but giving up of another bonus. But yea, the word potential implies there is choice to make. And each option is powerful and she has three of them at least (more actually).

Asrai Alacrity: Blocking an attack or pushing grants Kerillian’s next two strikes 30 % attack speed and 10 % more power. This alone is more than what you listed. 45 %. Without any weapon stuff or traits. Just her talents.

No, I didnt say you should dodge outside fights O.o That would be as idiotic as people slashing air just to the be 10 % faster. It just means that you get the bonus while fighting a horde anyway because you are constantly dodging then. You need like 20 seconds start-up time if that is your gripe. But it is not an issue.

Has to be a regional thingy then. I use Focused Spirit all the time on Cataclysm and it does what it is supposed to do. While there is some friendly fire it isnt that much of an issue.

You can kit her easily to work with both. But horde is not an issue for her. And no, Mercenary (without talent) has no better dodge distance. I am not sure where this bias comes from. But you can look up the actual numbers. Handmaiden has it as a passive, Mercenary doesnt. And in average ALL elf weapons also have better dodge modifiers than Kruber’s arsenal.

Hm, your spawns are pretty different from what I see and hear usually.

EDIT: Less off-topic. Although I don’t plan on more discussions.

I agree actually, as long as something aside from the dodges gets better this weapon will be excellent even if it means going down to like 5-6 dodges or whatnot.

Cleaving armor is not very amazing when they do like 8 damage on a heavy to the first armored hit…well at least against CW´s.

It is weaker than dual weapons at breaking their posture and it cant outright break the shields unlike some weapons either.

I actually realized it has a surprisingly good ability to stagger stormvermin on light headshots so it´s not all bad even if i agree that heavies are the main way to actually get rid off the vermin.

Something could be buffed yeah.

I honestly think this might only be really strong on the shield due to heavy attack combo synergy. You push-attack-heavy and do a load of bonus damage for free.

I myself want this thing replaced with something more interesting, invis on a melee fighter who is supposedly a guard makes no sense at all.

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Why do i need to constantly avoid damage? The cooldown is 10 seconds. TEN. It is up almost immediately. Are you screwed if you are fighting a horde or patrol while standing in a gas cloud? Yea, but I think most careers or talent combinations are.

Sure as hell not. It is a trap in the sense that if you use proper positioning most boni can be covered without relying on GoL. The one huge bonus it has is dropping aggro which I don’t like because your team has to cover it.

If it were me I would increase Gift of Ladrielle’s invisibility to 3s but would also double (or at least 50 % more) the time for the active skill being useable again. It is just one of those stupid cheese talents which gives you bad habits.

Having to sacrifice 2 options for 1 and thus losing their benefits to get something from the choice taken is the downside i meant. And saying that there is potential her to have something is just saying “she can possibly have it…” without specifying more than that.

But then she gives up the power from focused spirit or the 5% critchance, and addtionally while i think the option is super powerful on the spear&shield i also do not think it´s efficient to use it for anything but elite slaying most of the time.

Thus the downtime ends up fairly high.

Lets look at Merc meanwhile, all his steroids merely need enemies to be nearby, for him to cleave-smack them or for him to ult. Uptime is thus consistent and easily avaliable.

Most of my wave fights are done in like 20 seconds, a horde might not last more than 40-50 seconds in total if things go smoothly…also why would i constantly dodge? I tend to find it more important to blockpush&attack appropriately when dealing with hordes. Dodgespamming just makes enemies start spamming charge attacks which is dangerous.

No accounting for individual experience i suppose x)

I wrote “Merc either takes less damage than she does or he has an actual better dodge distance than she does…” as in Merc takes less damage OR he has a better dodge.

This is a matter of talent choices, the final choice on that row is more ammo.

You telling me you get more than 2-3…4? stormvermin per wave during a horde? O_O Monks and the like i´d easily accept but i cant honestly recall vermin being so numerous per wave.

Fair point about the Dual Swords.

I can only see a dot after this quote.

It has surprisingly good stagger. Seems bizarre to me that this heavy/low mobility weapon does low armour damage on lights. If it’s hitting that hard to stagger them some payoff in damage makes sense, especially since it doesn’t cleave armour like a lot of the other heavy 2h weapons do.

It’s decent on the 1h Sword, Greatsword and Glaive since they all have a cleave push attack followed by another cleave attack.

Sorry. I’ve been playing too much DWONS. 10s is a lifetime there. Probably fine in official.

Glad to hear you don’t want Ladrielle buffed.

…Was trying to put in a ( + ) sign, didnt realize i had to make extra efforts to make it visible ._.

I agree, it feels like it ought to do more, at least against lighter armors.

Fair points.

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Lol i suggest you to try the weapon by yourself. It very good against hordes, very good against single target armor with a combo that kills stormvermin 2 very fast hits on legend and 3 shot on cata not counting crit chance that anyway is increased and of course the infinite dodges at max distince because why nott, Oh and the outer block cost multiplier of 1.5 because probably all that mobility is not enough you need something to save your ass if you get surrounded.

Only compared to dagger and sword and dagger, try build for crit chain h1h2l3l4 that have 25% and 50% ecyta crit with very easy headshot pattern, and being a dual wilder you do the full damage to 2 enemies instead of one, this weapon shreds mixed hordes.
Only weakness is superarmour but not that much

More like low risk high reward you 2 shot cata storvermin super good against superarmour and really you move super fast during light attacks i don’t really see the risk.

So for a weapon to be good it needs to delete chaos patrol? I mean of course compared to glave 2 daggers and SaD of course is not good enough. Spear is a fair weapon.


It’s actually not push attack in to h2 is one of the best combo in the game, on shade you can ult and miss the push attack hit with the heavy and deal the same damage as if you ulted with dual daggers by the whay both 2 daggers and SaD push attacks have half cost and ignore shields.

It’s another of the fair weapons compared to the arsenal of other characters.

Literally good at evrything, even dodging considering you use it on handmaden so it has 20% dodge distance and 3 dodges lol, very good against armor and superarmor comparede to the other shields, you can reach the same stagger breakponts as the other shields exept chaos warriors overhed but with so much mobility really who cares.

The fact that it deals damage to armour with lights is alredy a lot, most wepons don’t 2 it and mostly they don’t have the level of cleave that glave has. It’s super good at evrything with no real weakness.
But i agree with you that the the 1h axe is a meme.

I have tried it, a lot in fact on Cataclysm and honestly at this point legend is kinda whatever since everything works there more or less. My issue is however that is does not work anywhere near so well in Cataclysm.

3 hits to kill a storm vermin? Do you actually realize that this is ridiculously slow for a single target weapon? And the fact that you can almost not use heavy attacks when enemies are abundant either.

Nope the only good thing this weapon has is dodge spam and other defensive stuff as you mentioned, everything else is just subpar.

Nope, it just outright awful overall.

I think my last test gave me needing 4 direct heavy attacks headshotting a bestigor and…1 or 2? Critting to kill it. And the cleave damage falloff is not low either.

A heavy attack deals 8 damage to a chaos warrior, on cata they have 250-ish health. So you´d need 31 heavy attacks to kill one although realistically a few less since some would crit.

Still, 20 heavy attacks is ridiculous enough on its own.

They are amazing against elites and whatnot i do agree but the risk is actually against hordes. Even if you attack very quickly and bleed enemies there will just be so many off them stacking that they easily end up hitting you as you move around anyway.

3 chaos warriors? Patrol? Rofl. Try 15 of them plus additional mobs for that. 3 chaos warrior is what i´d call a fairly average ambient group in cata.

It is fair, but the point was just disassemble the claim that most elf weapons were OP.

I am well aware, but pray tell how feasible is this option inside a horde when trying to pick off a chaos warrior for instance? It does work when dealing with lone enemies sure but otherwise not so much.

No it is not actually good at everything. Downsides it has is boss damage and horde clearing. Normal Spear and dual blades for comparison.

Low damage and no damage becomes very hard to tell apart when enemies have large enough healthbars. And unlike say Krubers 2handed hammer the glaive does not cleave through things like stormvermin or monks which reduces effectiveness in cata hordes.

That combined with it´s lower speed and stamina is what creates it´s downsides as a 2hander and with that said, i think you ought to reconsider your definition of “fair”. Because a lot of the other characters do have weapons that arent fair as much as they are “crap” and saying that keri´s good or decent weapons are OP when comparing them is a bit off.

For instance the Sword&dagger is not overpowered, it is versatile but has clear tradeoffs and similarly so the glaive isnt omnipotent and has notable downsides. Not having a huge red button that results in death if pressed is not the same as being invincible : P

I guess it’s okay. From looking at the breakpoint calc, the Glaive’s lights do 4.44 on bodyshot to armour/8.95 on headshot, while the Falchion does 2.91 on bodyshot and 7.57 on headshot. The Falchion is faster, does more damage with L3 (19.1 body/28.65 headshot), while being more mobile and better vs shields. Human Greatsword is 8.06 on bodyshot heavy (which cleaves armour) and 13.43 on headshot.

The Glaive’s always felt underwhelming to me outside of its heavy chain. I think a minor increase to the armour damage of the lights would be fair.

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It’s the second fastest heavy attack in the entire game, most so called “meta” weapon need 3 hits to kill stormvermin and they are slower

Sorry i should have said evry weapon except 4 is extreamly powerful, but i though that the word most would heve been enough to summarize.

Ho no you can’t take out chaos worriors inside a horde easly like 90% of all the other weapons,(disclaimer the number is just an estimate true number may be different), what a big weakness.
Oh by the way, not as safe as dual dagger but you actually can do it quite easy enough, you can take your distance with 2 doges back and push attack in to h1 and then block and dodge again, quite easy with handmaiden, doable with shade, and both of them have anyway god ways to drop aggro.

A lot of other weapon have the same weakness while not having so stong points like dual sword is still not something to cry about.

The same risk if not less of swinging a slow weapon in high density hordes, if you are not careful you gonna get hit in hordes, how can you call this a wakness?

I know how cata is i don’t see what is the point of this statemant.

True but are 2 different weapons with different purposes, glave have much more single target damage.

By fair i mean compared to most other weapon of other carachters, other charachtes have some weapons as good as them but just one or 2 and they get immeditly nerfed at the scream of power creep but for some reason elf always eludes the nerf gun.

No weapon makes you invincible, i’m just saying that the downsides here are very little compred to the other weapons. I would like to have tho other weapon on par with the one that kerillian has… but then people scream power creeeeeep and cry in the forums.

Define meta weapon?

Because if i am not mistaken saltz can do it with rapier, A&F and billhook.
Kruber has at least 3 weapons that can do it being Exe, SnM, Brettonian Longsword and even the heavy spear if we let him cancel the heavy chain into 2 heavy stabs rather than Stab-sweep.

Elf does it with Daggers, SnD, Glaive, greatsword and even the spear if we permit the “air light” - 2nd heavy-light-2nd heavy combo. I also find the spear&shield bash-stab into 2nd and 3rd heavy combo notable.

Bardin does it only with Dual axes and cog hammer while Sienna does not at all but she has her Fire thing going on which is unique to her. Honorable mentions however to pickaxe oneshotting but being a bit too bad generally…

Its actually a fairly big deal for shade, being able to easily take out CW´s or not…

There is no weapon that is considered to be good with a weakness like this, at least not that i can think off quickly anyway, the closest one should be Bardins dual hammers but they deal twice as much…

Is there any slow weapon that does not have far superior cleave and stagger aside from Glaive? Also, range.

Calling out you for hyperboling 3 chaos warriors into a patrol x)

Only on heavy attacks against a single target, in a Horde situation that hammer outpaces glaive in damage.

Because the elf´s weapons are not overpowered? If you´d looked at say Krubers tuskgor spear on release and compare to Keri´s spear you´d instantly realize that that thing was insanely superior in pretty much every way imaginable.

And even when Keri´s weapons have higher base stats it tends to be true that Kruber&saltz have better steroids meaning that even with a “weaker” weapon they end up doing more damage in melee anyway.

The only weapon Keri has that really lacks big downsides is SnD…which come to think off it has poor stagger. I suppose the strong point of not being really weak agaisnt any type with the cost of being average against all types with a weakish stagger. Not particularly amazing downsides but i think its a good thing that the “big red self destruction buttons” are abscent…because frankly they ruin good weapons.

Its heavies are good. It’s the lights having low horde damage that holds it back. One of the only weapons that can’t kill a Skavenslave on headshot with a light yet it’s heavies 5 shot bodyshot SV at base. Odd for a sword. I believe a 10.6% buff to the light’s inf damage would 1 shot headshot Skavenslaves at base (small buff as that’s 10.6% more of very little). Maybe decrease the dodges to 12 or 6, though I don’t think that would be necessary.

It also lacks range. It’s much more awkward to fight things like Berserkers with it without getting hit than it is with something like Saltz’ Falchion because of this.

Edit: Please ignore my foolish numbers. I got mixed between the actual base damage and the damage the breakpoint calc shows. The general idea is there though.


tbh I’d dumpster the dodges down to 4 and increase light damage enough to 2 shot bodyshot fanatics in cata (with smiter and 20% power vs)

also add more reach on the lights for sure since that’s something I’ve noticed myself being a bit odd compared to the empire 1h and falchion

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So many weapons with good breakpoints compared to the other characters how is this in favour of elf weapons mostly being all good?

There is also no weapon that deal with mixed hordes as good as dual sword except greatsword but far less mobility maybe bretlongsword.

I feel like we are goin in a circle, trade range and cleave for dps and mobility, i’m not saying that dual daggers are superior to those weapon nor that other charachters don’t have good weapons but but compared but elf has the most good weapon of all. Try to compare those not as good as SaD and dual daggers weapons to the other carachers not meta weapons, you will see very big discrepancy.

Yeah so was mine.

Again going in citcle more here less there we have established that glave is the same good as hammer one of the top weapons of kruber and bardin but yet you belive it’s not strong enough for kerillian to be a top weapon.

True but look at spear and shield, superior of all shields but not touched, actually buffed in bbb.
So its kerillian 1h sword superior to kuber/sienna.

Nope excellent at armor damage just little less than the top same with cleave for a weapon so fast.

2 shotting a stormvermin with heavy headshots is not what the game is based on and other stuff like cleave&stagger can be extremely priceless too.

Dual swords are crap against mixed hordes though? A few armored targets and you are stuck with enemies you need like 4 heavy headshots to kill who all soak your cleave each ontop of an enemy army. Dual swords only excel against unarmored enemies.

I mean, 1handed sword, 1handed axe and greatsword are shared in some form over multiple characters and they all generally suck or are just inferior to other options for some reason.

The only elf weapons i consider to be “pretty decent/good” but not amazing generally on their own for the elf is spear, glaive, 1handed sword. And as for the Spear? Kruber has one with higher damage&range but less mobility, just overshadowed by his other options last i heard…also how is the halberd these days? Honestly rarely see it.

Glaive? Elf executioner variant but is worse than executioner in all aspects as far as i know. 1handed sword? They all underperform as i see it, not terrible but never good.

So what´s left? Elf greatsword vs either of Krubers thus far unmentioned big swords? Both of his are better unless we are talking elite killing but elf greatsword not even a really good choice for that since there are better options.

Dual swords vs A&F or Sword&mace? Not even a contest, they are basically the alternatives to Sword&dagger and if i am not mistaken A&F is actually a bit better in terms of damage.

So you are saying its unusual to encounter/fight 3 chaos warriors at the same time on Cata? Very well. Try 3-4 stormvermin instead, those are common as dirt and spawn in every skaven wave.

Werent you calling this thing overpowered along with most elf weapons? I was making a point here saying that relative to the others who are “normal” it really is not overpowered.

Because it was utterly awful to play it before BBB, did you ever actually do that? You only had single target stabs to deal with hordes which was gods awful. Now you have at least one cleaving attack in there making it decent but still not overpowered.

Best Shield weapon? Well yep the others truly just suck aside from possibly the Brettonian one which i lack info on since i havent bought it.

All 1handed swords suck, mainly due to some screwed up balance philosophy and you cant measure their state by seeing if Fatshark buffed them or not. Some things need help but Fatshark are just undecided on how they want to do it so time ends up dragging on and tons of people have confused this for Fatshark “approving” the weapons as good. Even when later comments revealed that this was not the case.

Armor damage is only really good when headshotting with the 2nd heavy which doesnt have instant access like say daggers heavies do. You gotta either use 1st heavy or push-stab first and if your aim is even a bit off or if you get interrupted then you gotta restart again.

Cleave is good for an Elf’s weapon but have you actually used it and compared to others?

It´s basically even with say rapier and that´s it, and the stagger is bad to the point where stormvermin dont even flinch if you headshot them with the first heavy quite a lot even when they are not using their overhead.

Really, compare it to Axe&falchion and tell me if it´s overpowered, or even mace and sword on Krubers melee careers…for all i see is a weapon that is versatile, versatile but not particularly amazing against anything relative to competition.

You are absolutely correct that there are a lot of crap weapons in the game but that doesnt make other weapons OP in any sense except by comparison i suppose.

Yes expecially stagger if there is someone dealing damage but those thing go kinda out of the window when evrothing dies in 2 hits.

So i guess you think greatsword is crap aginst mixed hordes too?

This is true.

Yes compared to dual daggers and SaD they are just that but are on the same level of falcion, reaper, 2h hammer, TSpear 2h axe helbard…

You really rarley see helbard? I don’t understand if you are being sarcastic.

If SaD wouldn’t be so good at clearing hordes then there would be more place for even gratsword i belive. I don’t remember the exat values of all the weapon but i can think of faster attacka, higher base damage on lights, with extra crit and much more mobility against better mass modifiers and headshot damage ( only exe ) i’m not sure but probably exe has more cleave damage but ithe need to check on that. Overall they have kinda fair comparison.

Just because the look similar doesn’t mean they fill the same Niche. Dual sword fill more the niche that gratsword has and not A&F and S&M so you should not make comparison. A&F may have a little better damage, but less mobility, slower attacks, less cleave, less crit chance. They used to be on the same level of S&D but after the nerfs they kinda inferior but kinda fine since victor really has much wahys to increase his damage output.

No it wasn’t, it was fine, and yes i used it. Some people actually complained about the change in the lights, there was cleaving attack just requred a little bit more of effort than just maindlessly pres right click.

They are not, you just have to build them for stagger breakpoints instead of kill. You dont just slap swift slaying on it,you put opportunist. They help a lot the team deal damage safely. When you slam to the ground a pack of monks that were oppressing the team you get more value than having just killed one. They are amazing to open space to save a down ally. With spear and shield you can open a path get some down ally up stun evry around, take out maybe a couple of hi priority target and still have high mobility to get out. If you consider that is weapon for handmaiden so it has the facto 1.2 dodge distance and can reach 90% block cost reduction.

Thats little details that make the weapon a little more skill to get the max value don’t change how good it is.

That’s why they have more mobility.

But i do and a lot of other people see it. There is a reason why S&D is the most used weapon on all kerillian careers while other characters at least have one most used just for one career.

Of course is by comparison you can only say someting is overperforming if you compare to the performance of others.

that’s a slippery slope though and not always accurate

something could be performing “adequately” while something else is absolutely useless


1H Axe movement while attacking feels kind of off for her, and doesn’t really offer anything more than what’s already available.

Spear headshot accuracy and awkwardness around Armour make it frustrating for me to use. But it can be great.

2H Sword feels strange to use, but works, and can be great.

Her other Weapons feel fine to me.

I usually run Focused Spirit and bully Hordes/Elite Hordes, especially with Glaive/Spear+Shield. The Power is applied to the Push and then the attacks, so not just to the attacks.

Oh and Stam Regen on Trink and Spear + Shield with 90% BCR is insane. Kind of makes up for not having any slam or AoE stun.

The only downsides to her are how awkward they’ve made everything.

  • Spam dodging
  • having to push-attack Bosses
  • her other Power vanishing on FF or the slightest bit of AoE
  • Ults that barely work. With 3.8k hours and a stupid amount of levels on Elf, I still find Bleed ult and Crit stacks a pain
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