that answers the balance between current stab combo vs double overhead
(didn’t see this one) ok so the problem with that is the heavy stab would need to come out fast enough to be quicker than push-attacking which I can’t really see how to do without it looking ridiculous, it’d also have to do more damage than the push attack combo, which again I’m not sure how that could be balanced well.
i dont understand the problem. The whole [Light 1 sweep -> Heavy 2 stab] doesn’t need to be faster than [Pushattack -> Light 3 over], they could have close time to completion, Light 1 sweep being faster than Pushattack.
it might do comparable damage on average? the same idea for Heavy 2 stab applies here - not great body damage, but great headshot damage.
The balancing part is that you don’t require stamina for it, and it’s suitable for mixed situation of horde+elite, stagger trash that gets close with light sweep, poke the elite in the second row (thanks to great reach), repeat.
that sounds fine in theory but won’t play out as such in reality, push attack into double overhead is already good for mixed hordes because you control the crowd with the push, L1 doesn’t control as effectively. in a mixed/pressured scenario too it’s easier to land overheads than stabs.
In any case current halberd doesn’t really have any issues, it fits a niche and the entire moveset is viable
but pushes don’t kill trash, Light 1 does. Also being that reliant on halberd stamina in a mixed scenario - is dangerous outside certain career/builds. You push stuff, attacks can land on the block -> can lead to easy guardbreak.
that depends on how fast the stab is. and how accurate the user
i don’t disagree about that (except wonky looking animation of repeated Light <-> Heavy sweeps from the same angle).
Its a shame though that the original design wasn’t polished first, before being replaced by a more boring (in my opinion) design. There’s a ton of weapons with streamlined gameplay already.
eh we tried polishing the base design as best we could and couldn’t come up with anything that fixed the fundamental issues. Unfortunately we have very different ideas on what the “art” of the weapon is
You and the original halberd designers would have such differences as well i think.
Because what i propose is just some attack speed buffs to make Heavy 2 less clunky to combo with, and increased Heavies damage. Whilist your ideas changed the Heavy order and the majority of combos between Heavies and Lights.
If i would hear from people who made the old moveset, that they won’t or couldn’t polish halberd, and that they approve of your change, then it would be much easier for me to accept it.
True it was endorsed by someone in FS, but we dont know any dev insight except this:
So we don’t really know whether they approve from the point of understanding what the original design supposed to do, or approve because its ok-ish and the majority likes.
That’s all total speculation so I can’t really comment on that, all that’s known is it was approved by both Fatshark and the vast majority of the community, surviving over a month of beta testing. That’s pretty much where the buck stops for me.
IF after all that time it was decided the changes weren’t appropriate or needed tweaking then I’d accept that as is, we made a lot of changes to various weapons so it’s not like the success of the mod (or how proud I am of it) is resting solely on the shoulders of any one change. I took a pretty big risk opting for the changes I did instead of just stat tweaking and calling it a day but it worked out in the end.
There’s not such a tiny minority of ppl who dislike the change so that they can be brushed off aside. Who were heavily invested in the weapon - else we just wouldn’t object.
We also dont know how the majority would react to the supposed stat tweaks too.
What i say is, there could be a scenario where more (or same) number of people will be left satisfied, and less be saddened. At the same time making halberd more unique.
The 2 combos “everyone” used - would be kept available and viable. So the majority won’t lose anything. And if anyone wants a more “user friendly” weapon - there’s a plentiful choice of other weapons, even on Kruber only.
Me being so critical of halberd change doesn’t devalue the mod as a whole.
On the contrary i was pleasantly surprised that Fatshark decided to take the mod as a blueprint. Honestly there’s a lot of changes i back 100%, to give examples:
1H Mace / 1H Hammer - it really needed more cleave on L1+L2. The Light 3 makes so much more sense as a singletarget damage profile, and the bonus crit chance on the uppercut is ingenious, not only compensates the inability to headshot, but also rewards going through combo if you want to proc Swift Slaying. L3+L4 also comboes well after heavies.
2H Hammer - push attack change to heavy profile. Diversifies combat. Lights can be done after a push normally, so there was no real need for an old pushattack with light profile.
Axe + Shield - more attack speed makes it more interacting in combat. Because shields are supposed for thick combat, so getting attacks&combos off needs a degree of speed.
Flail - more lights cleave, damage buff for heavy.
Empire Longbow - no forced zoom on heavy charged.
Handgun - good change on reload speed and ammo count. More usable on non-ranged careers.
that’s already the case currently
imo Halberd is just as unique as it always has been but this is very much so all opinion
True, we don’t.
we don’t know any of this either
we don’t really know this either
There’s a lot of things that have been said in this thread that are total unknowns, all I’ve focused on is what IS known. If there were enough people who weren’t satisfied with halberd I’d have assumed/hoped there would have been sizable enough feedback during the month+ of beta we had to tweak it. In any case it’s what FS have opted to integrate and anything they do from here is absolutely their prerogative but this really does just come down to opinion and interpretation rather than objective issues, which is valid, but let’s not pretend it’s anything more than that.
So it all started from you stating that the current change was the only way you could see the halberd becoming more interesting, using all of its attacks etc.
One of your rationale was that Heavy 2 stab is hard to access / the combos are clunky and awkward.
When presented with sword+dagger, glaive, flail, etc examples of their powerful single-target attacks not being first - you said it was ok for them, so that seemed weird to me.
Then we got in detail about old design, how could it be stat tweaked to achieve the same goal of yours. I wanted to convince you that it was a better way. If i failed - then no big deal, its them opinions like you’ve said.
I wouldn’t describe these as clunky and awkward at all though, nor do I consider their single target damage to be difficult to access. In the case of flail I think it’s in a “good enough” spot, I’m not really sure what else could be done with it
I don’t describe them them like that too. I think they work good.
The thing that seems weird in your logic, that apparently, halberd Heavy 2 stab can’t be made not clunky via speed tweak. The same way as s+d and glaive aren’t clunky.
That sounded like double standards, or am i missing something? Isn’t the speed to complete all these combos for heavy hitter 2nd attack - are the determining difference of clunkyness between halberd and s+d with glaive?
I’m talking about [Light 1 -> Heavy 2 stab], or [pushatk -> Heavy 2 stab] of old halberd.
pushatk->heavy 2 stab still exists
thing is with s&d the move into Heavy 2 is very fluid looking whilst also being quite fast, Halberd gets pretty wonky looking when it’s moving too fast (can be seen with the current double stab combo which definitely needs polishing) but if the speed is low it’s not tangibly different enough from the default to mean much (at least based on my findings with it)
it’s less double standards and more that this one thing that works very well on one weapon doesn’t apply too well on another. My train of thought is based on each individual weapon and what it’s working with. If someone wants to have a crack at tweaking halberd themselves, be my guest but what I came up with is what I ended up with. Also L1 heavy stab still has the issue of being eclipsed by either just going through the full light combo or just taking the opportunity to push attack into either heavy stab or L3.
i wonder though what’s the point of this combo with new moveset.
so looks are not indifferent to you. That [Light 1 sweep <-> Heavy 2 sweep] chain doesn’t bother you?
I didn’t experienced any wonkyness of old halberd combos at +20% AS, only starts to show when pushed to like 40%. I think devs did a great job for first person animations all around, not just for halberd. But they’re designed for certain patterns, if you change them, the fluid feel can break, which we see in current Heavy 1 stab -> Light 2 stab.
Don’t want to repeat, but that’s where the buff to damage of Heavy 2 stab comes in, with a great HS modifier, and other points already discussed.
unsure if there are numbers that could be reached that would make it worthwhile whilst still being reasonably balanced
I’ve been playing with Halberd lately and there’s a use for every combo.
L1>Block cancel = anti horde when you need mobility and defense
L1>H2 = anti horde when you want max DPS or elites are mixed in
H1>L2>Repeat = Single target dps
Push Attack>L3 = Single target dps when you can afford a heavy (surrounded, dodge dancing, etc)
Push Attack>H2 = Not truly needed in any niche, but I do it out of habit from old halberd. Also, I sometimes swap into it mid combo if space opens up and I can afford a heavy.
It feels natural and combos lead into one another so you can change up your rotation on the fly without block canceling. It’s a good satisfying weapon to use now. The low mobility and narrow sweeps leave it vulnerable to flanking and enemies nibbling your toes so I don’t think it goes anywhere near OP territory.
How can you do a Light 1 sweep, if you stuck in [Heavy 1 stab <-> Light 2 stab] chain?
Also starting pushattack is putting block on anyway.
is there a use for full light combo?
I don’t think it’s a matter of combos being simplified verses diversified. The previous halberd just couldn’t do anything compared to other options for Kruber because of how wonky and disconnected the combos were. Why would I ever choose old halberd over hammer or executioner sword when those two can easily swap between hoard clear and single target attacks easily and do a great job at both, and halberd just can’t?
Full light combo is pointless, Full heavy combo is pointless - who even does them?
I don’t understand why this is an issue. Some weapons are super simple, and some aren’t. Halberd can swap between combos that do good CC, and combos that do good single target damage, and because light attacks aren’t strictly one type and heavies aren’t strictly the other, it allows for a lot more versatility in switching combos in the middle of chains in order to best accommodate the situation. Halberd, Brettonian Longsword, Spear+Shield, and other weapons that have these more complicated but effective attack chains are weirder to work with, of course, but you get that payoff that other good weapons that are more straightforward, like Rapier, 2H hammer, and Glaive don’t.
I mean I feel like it’s the exact same weapon, except now it has even better single-target DPS, and I can clear hoards without needing to constantly block cancel the first light attack, which looks just as if not more ridiculous than chaining the heavy sweep into the light sweep.
I kinda agree. The original moveset wasn’t fully working due to lacking in attack speed for certain moves. That’s the only cause for wonkyness and “disconnected combos”, i think.
its also more thematic for a halberd/pollaxe to be less fluid in transitions, then a two handed sword or hammer, which in real life can use the momentum of their previous strike to execute a next attack.
so both horde clear combos look ridiculous? i think so too.
Something entirly different and not only directed at you, but everyone reading.
Disclaimer, it has been years since i did anything else then block cancel, so i might be wrong on the order of halberd light combo.
But here goes
How about keeping old heavy attack order, but have 2 light sweeps after one another? What do you and other readers think of that?
(I know it’s a pointless question as the change has already been put into live, but i’m just wondering)