Halberd combo changes are going against weapon design philosophy of Vermintide

sword & dagger is one of the best weapons in the game so idk

Glaive is also pretty similar to executioner in the sense that you just swing away at things, saving heavies for elites/bosses (also a very good weapon)

side note: for some reason spellcheck doesn’t recognize glaive as a word???

No doubt they are good weapons. But about the combo’s, wouldn’t you say they are also ‘imperfect’? If not, why not. If yes, why is it ok on such weapons?

if my question makes sense

idk honestly the idea of “imperfect” combos doesn’t mean a whole lot to me

weapons either combo well or they don’t, Sword & Dagger doesn’t have a single combo that could be considered bad at any rate

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It would be impractical to access second heavy on s&d, or stab on sienna dagger etc. Would you be for making those more accessible?

what combo changes would you make for flail to be practical

second heavy on s&d is very easily accessible via push attack, Sienna dagger we actually planned on giving the same treatment but never got around to it.

Flail honestly I’m ok with being the way it is

It suprises me a bit that you find an attack locked behind another one good, i thought you were of the opinion every attack should be accesible trought certain attacks in the rotation, like how halberd is currently. I am sorry i have missunderstood ur standpoints.

Why are you also ok with flail if you think they are imperfect.
Also dagger is a bit the same as sword and dagger don’t you think?

what about glaive heavy 1-> heavy 2 combo?

why wouldn’t you want to reverse the order of attacks like you did on halberd?

The heavy 1 does quite low damage relative to heavy 2 (and harder to headshot with), so it kinda pointless right?

I treat pretty much everything on a case by case basis

Flail seems intentionally clunky but it’s not in a way that’s inherently a hindrance

no? the combo is good for killing elites, you can 2 shot an SV on cata. Also why would I want to reverse the combo? there’s literally no reason for me to want to adjust glaive beyond the changes I’d already given it

that’s understandable.

You mentioned earlier that you tried a lot of stat tweaks before considering the combo change on halberd.

Have you considered this stat tweak on an old halberd moveset, which will allow for a 2 hit kill for SV, just like the glaive:

  • Push attack (overhead) -> Heavy 2 stab (headshot)?

  • Light 1 sweep -> Heavy 2 stab (headshot)?

also reducing charge time for Heavy 2 stab if it feels too awkward

I tried buffing the heavy sweep and the stab but it didn’t solve the issues with their placement in combos really

If I buffed them up enough to be worthwhile over the combos they were competing with they became too powerful and the old combos would just replace them as the unused ones

another thing we tried was making both H1 and H2 single target focused, but that just resulted in spamming heavies for armour and L1 block cancel for everything else

Yes, balance is a finicky thing, its not much different from trying to balance the current Double overhead vs Heavy stab combo.

True, i can see how massively buffed Heavy 2 stab could overshadow Light 3 overhead, after a pushattack. So [pushattack -> Light 3] wont be used. Though there could be a distinction between them which will balance both of them:

[pushattack -> Light 3 overhead] - is a more fast and safe form of attacking, when you’re close up and personal. Good damage for body, not a high headshot bonus, allows you to finish a wounded enemy (like a CW after a Heavy 2 stab headshot). Shieldbreaking. Add more stagger if you want.

[pushattack -> Heavy 2 stab] - is a bit slower and more vulnerable form of attacking, much higher headshot bonus rewarding precision.

[Light 1 sweep -> Heavy 2 stab] - doesn’t require stamina, faster access to Heavy 2 stab, can fight a horde and pick elites with one combo.

that answers the balance between current stab combo vs double overhead

(didn’t see this one) ok so the problem with that is the heavy stab would need to come out fast enough to be quicker than push-attacking which I can’t really see how to do without it looking ridiculous, it’d also have to do more damage than the push attack combo, which again I’m not sure how that could be balanced well.

i dont understand the problem. The whole [Light 1 sweep -> Heavy 2 stab] doesn’t need to be faster than [Pushattack -> Light 3 over], they could have close time to completion, Light 1 sweep being faster than Pushattack.

it might do comparable damage on average? the same idea for Heavy 2 stab applies here - not great body damage, but great headshot damage.
The balancing part is that you don’t require stamina for it, and it’s suitable for mixed situation of horde+elite, stagger trash that gets close with light sweep, poke the elite in the second row (thanks to great reach), repeat.

that sounds fine in theory but won’t play out as such in reality, push attack into double overhead is already good for mixed hordes because you control the crowd with the push, L1 doesn’t control as effectively. in a mixed/pressured scenario too it’s easier to land overheads than stabs.

In any case current halberd doesn’t really have any issues, it fits a niche and the entire moveset is viable

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but pushes don’t kill trash, Light 1 does. Also being that reliant on halberd stamina in a mixed scenario - is dangerous outside certain career/builds. You push stuff, attacks can land on the block -> can lead to easy guardbreak.

that depends on how fast the stab is. and how accurate the user

i don’t disagree about that (except wonky looking animation of repeated Light <-> Heavy sweeps from the same angle).

Its a shame though that the original design wasn’t polished first, before being replaced by a more boring (in my opinion) design. There’s a ton of weapons with streamlined gameplay already.

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eh we tried polishing the base design as best we could and couldn’t come up with anything that fixed the fundamental issues. Unfortunately we have very different ideas on what the “art” of the weapon is

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You and the original halberd designers would have such differences as well i think.

Because what i propose is just some attack speed buffs to make Heavy 2 less clunky to combo with, and increased Heavies damage. Whilist your ideas changed the Heavy order and the majority of combos between Heavies and Lights.

If i would hear from people who made the old moveset, that they won’t or couldn’t polish halberd, and that they approve of your change, then it would be much easier for me to accept it.

True it was endorsed by someone in FS, but we dont know any dev insight except this:

So we don’t really know whether they approve from the point of understanding what the original design supposed to do, or approve because its ok-ish and the majority likes.

That’s all total speculation so I can’t really comment on that, all that’s known is it was approved by both Fatshark and the vast majority of the community, surviving over a month of beta testing. That’s pretty much where the buck stops for me.

IF after all that time it was decided the changes weren’t appropriate or needed tweaking then I’d accept that as is, we made a lot of changes to various weapons so it’s not like the success of the mod (or how proud I am of it) is resting solely on the shoulders of any one change. I took a pretty big risk opting for the changes I did instead of just stat tweaking and calling it a day but it worked out in the end.

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There’s not such a tiny minority of ppl who dislike the change so that they can be brushed off aside. Who were heavily invested in the weapon - else we just wouldn’t object.

We also dont know how the majority would react to the supposed stat tweaks too.

What i say is, there could be a scenario where more (or same) number of people will be left satisfied, and less be saddened. At the same time making halberd more unique.

The 2 combos “everyone” used - would be kept available and viable. So the majority won’t lose anything. And if anyone wants a more “user friendly” weapon - there’s a plentiful choice of other weapons, even on Kruber only.

Me being so critical of halberd change doesn’t devalue the mod as a whole.
On the contrary i was pleasantly surprised that Fatshark decided to take the mod as a blueprint. Honestly there’s a lot of changes i back 100%, to give examples:

1H Mace / 1H Hammer - it really needed more cleave on L1+L2. The Light 3 makes so much more sense as a singletarget damage profile, and the bonus crit chance on the uppercut is ingenious, not only compensates the inability to headshot, but also rewards going through combo if you want to proc Swift Slaying. L3+L4 also comboes well after heavies.

2H Hammer - push attack change to heavy profile. Diversifies combat. Lights can be done after a push normally, so there was no real need for an old pushattack with light profile.

Axe + Shield - more attack speed makes it more interacting in combat. Because shields are supposed for thick combat, so getting attacks&combos off needs a degree of speed.

Flail - more lights cleave, damage buff for heavy.

Empire Longbow - no forced zoom on heavy charged.

Handgun - good change on reload speed and ammo count. More usable on non-ranged careers.

that’s already the case currently

imo Halberd is just as unique as it always has been but this is very much so all opinion

True, we don’t.

we don’t know any of this either

we don’t really know this either

There’s a lot of things that have been said in this thread that are total unknowns, all I’ve focused on is what IS known. If there were enough people who weren’t satisfied with halberd I’d have assumed/hoped there would have been sizable enough feedback during the month+ of beta we had to tweak it. In any case it’s what FS have opted to integrate and anything they do from here is absolutely their prerogative but this really does just come down to opinion and interpretation rather than objective issues, which is valid, but let’s not pretend it’s anything more than that.