Halberd combo changes are going against weapon design philosophy of Vermintide

So it all started from you stating that the current change was the only way you could see the halberd becoming more interesting, using all of its attacks etc.

One of your rationale was that Heavy 2 stab is hard to access / the combos are clunky and awkward.
When presented with sword+dagger, glaive, flail, etc examples of their powerful single-target attacks not being first - you said it was ok for them, so that seemed weird to me.

Then we got in detail about old design, how could it be stat tweaked to achieve the same goal of yours. I wanted to convince you that it was a better way. If i failed - then no big deal, its them opinions like you’ve said.

I wouldn’t describe these as clunky and awkward at all though, nor do I consider their single target damage to be difficult to access. In the case of flail I think it’s in a “good enough” spot, I’m not really sure what else could be done with it

I don’t describe them them like that too. I think they work good.

The thing that seems weird in your logic, that apparently, halberd Heavy 2 stab can’t be made not clunky via speed tweak. The same way as s+d and glaive aren’t clunky.

That sounded like double standards, or am i missing something? Isn’t the speed to complete all these combos for heavy hitter 2nd attack - are the determining difference of clunkyness between halberd and s+d with glaive?
I’m talking about [Light 1 → Heavy 2 stab], or [pushatk → Heavy 2 stab] of old halberd.

pushatk->heavy 2 stab still exists

thing is with s&d the move into Heavy 2 is very fluid looking whilst also being quite fast, Halberd gets pretty wonky looking when it’s moving too fast (can be seen with the current double stab combo which definitely needs polishing) but if the speed is low it’s not tangibly different enough from the default to mean much (at least based on my findings with it)

it’s less double standards and more that this one thing that works very well on one weapon doesn’t apply too well on another. My train of thought is based on each individual weapon and what it’s working with. If someone wants to have a crack at tweaking halberd themselves, be my guest but what I came up with is what I ended up with. Also L1 heavy stab still has the issue of being eclipsed by either just going through the full light combo or just taking the opportunity to push attack into either heavy stab or L3.

i wonder though what’s the point of this combo with new moveset.

so looks are not indifferent to you. That [Light 1 sweep ↔ Heavy 2 sweep] chain doesn’t bother you?

I didn’t experienced any wonkyness of old halberd combos at +20% AS, only starts to show when pushed to like 40%. I think devs did a great job for first person animations all around, not just for halberd. But they’re designed for certain patterns, if you change them, the fluid feel can break, which we see in current Heavy 1 stab → Light 2 stab.

Don’t want to repeat, but that’s where the buff to damage of Heavy 2 stab comes in, with a great HS modifier, and other points already discussed.

unsure if there are numbers that could be reached that would make it worthwhile whilst still being reasonably balanced

I’ve been playing with Halberd lately and there’s a use for every combo.

L1>Block cancel = anti horde when you need mobility and defense
L1>H2 = anti horde when you want max DPS or elites are mixed in
H1>L2>Repeat = Single target dps
Push Attack>L3 = Single target dps when you can afford a heavy (surrounded, dodge dancing, etc)
Push Attack>H2 = Not truly needed in any niche, but I do it out of habit from old halberd. Also, I sometimes swap into it mid combo if space opens up and I can afford a heavy.

It feels natural and combos lead into one another so you can change up your rotation on the fly without block canceling. It’s a good satisfying weapon to use now. The low mobility and narrow sweeps leave it vulnerable to flanking and enemies nibbling your toes so I don’t think it goes anywhere near OP territory.

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How can you do a Light 1 sweep, if you stuck in [Heavy 1 stab ↔ Light 2 stab] chain?

Also starting pushattack is putting block on anyway.

is there a use for full light combo?

I don’t think it’s a matter of combos being simplified verses diversified. The previous halberd just couldn’t do anything compared to other options for Kruber because of how wonky and disconnected the combos were. Why would I ever choose old halberd over hammer or executioner sword when those two can easily swap between hoard clear and single target attacks easily and do a great job at both, and halberd just can’t?

Full light combo is pointless, Full heavy combo is pointless - who even does them?

I don’t understand why this is an issue. Some weapons are super simple, and some aren’t. Halberd can swap between combos that do good CC, and combos that do good single target damage, and because light attacks aren’t strictly one type and heavies aren’t strictly the other, it allows for a lot more versatility in switching combos in the middle of chains in order to best accommodate the situation. Halberd, Brettonian Longsword, Spear+Shield, and other weapons that have these more complicated but effective attack chains are weirder to work with, of course, but you get that payoff that other good weapons that are more straightforward, like Rapier, 2H hammer, and Glaive don’t.

I mean I feel like it’s the exact same weapon, except now it has even better single-target DPS, and I can clear hoards without needing to constantly block cancel the first light attack, which looks just as if not more ridiculous than chaining the heavy sweep into the light sweep.

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I kinda agree. The original moveset wasn’t fully working due to lacking in attack speed for certain moves. That’s the only cause for wonkyness and “disconnected combos”, i think.

its also more thematic for a halberd/pollaxe to be less fluid in transitions, then a two handed sword or hammer, which in real life can use the momentum of their previous strike to execute a next attack.

so both horde clear combos look ridiculous? i think so too.

Something entirly different and not only directed at you, but everyone reading.

Disclaimer, it has been years since i did anything else then block cancel, so i might be wrong on the order of halberd light combo.

But here goes

How about keeping old heavy attack order, but have 2 light sweeps after one another? What do you and other readers think of that?

(I know it’s a pointless question as the change has already been put into live, but i’m just wondering)

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I kinda agree rhe original moveset wasn’t fully working due to lacking in attack speed for certain moves. That’s the only cause for wonkyness and “disconnected combos”, i think.

Agree to disagree on the reasoning of exactly why it didn’t work, but the conclusion is the same. Previous halberd wasn’t great.

its also more thematic for a halberd/pollaxe to be less fluid in transitions, then a two handed sword or hammer, which in real life can use the momentum of their previous strike to execute a next attack.

What? A polearm can’t use momentum to continue strikes? Heavier, longer weapons rely on that more than smaller, shorter weapons do. Incredibly similar to longsword fencing in that regard. That makes it sound like “having stilted animations in okay”, and doesn’t explain why Kruber is incapable of performing two sweeps back to back, just because he’s using a polearm.

so both horde clear combos look ridiculous? i think so too.

It could use a touchup, but light sweep into heavy sweep is fine. Attacking multiple times from the same side is very common, and while IRL you’d drop the shoulder and roll the weapon around, perhaps under or perhaps around the head, that’s not particularly communicable in a stable first person camera. Could use a looking at, sure, but no more silly any of the other weird first person animations in the game. Claiming that light sweep into heavy sweep is a ridiculous change that makes the weapon animations look unnatural when light > block > light existed before is a strange point.

Personally, I don’t hugely care one way or the other as long as the weapon is fun to use, and it’s combos aren’t jumbled and goofy. I like it as it is now, but if there was a different way to choose 1) crowd clearing attacks all in a row and 2) Single-target DPS attacks all in a row, as long as it was still fun, I wouldn’t be bothered.

It’s when it’s “Well here’s two alright DPS strikes, followed by a good sweep, and here’s a mediocre sweep followed a real good, long-reaching stab”, that’s where my issues lie. As long as I can combo stuff together in a consistent way to do the job I want the weapon to do at the time, I’m happy.

While you’re technically correct that it wasn’t great, i had the most fun with it compared to any other melee weapon in the game. Now the things i found fun about it - are gone.

Longsword fencing and halberd/pollaxe fencing are two completely different beasts. The length of the pole usually is just too long to maneuver freely around your body, keeping the momentum going. It’s also about the difference in grip, and weight balance (swords having a close center of mass to the guard).

Also, yes he can do 2 sweeps back to back with halberd, but the 2nd sweep should be a upward swing with the back of the staff. Which also won’t use momentum from the 1st sweep.

Block cancelling is not the same as a fully fleshed attack combo. I would hardly call it a combo, and prefer not to use it at all. Heavy sweep on the other hand - now is tied with the Light sweep very tightly, so the ridiculousness is forced.

Ok that’s fair.

I still don’t see how thats a bad thing, the weapon was fun and had access to every attack. Not everything should be easily acessible without going trough some other attacks in the chain. But thanks for answering :slight_smile:

Below part is in general, not adressed to you. (Well technically it is as you are in this thread)

Ofcourse players are gonna find things like ‘block cancel light sweeps’, as halberd was primarily chopping, so to cover the weakness players tried to find a way to make it also ‘good’ in the horde clear area. Players have become so used to it that we just added in as a ‘base’ feature, when it shouldn’t be.
Imagine billhook without stamina regen and try to horde clear. Should we make the sweep more accessible and infinitly chainable if they ever remove stamina regen? Pretty sure if they removed all stamina regen sources, billhook wouldn’t be top tier anymore, as we would actually use the billhook how it was designed, but players like to cover their weaknesses on weapons to a point where they don’t even matter.

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While you’re technically correct that it wasn’t great, i had the most fun with it compared to any other melee weapon in the game. Now the things i found fun about it - are gone.

Totally valid. I don’t share this opinion, but that doesn’t change that you don’t like the changes.

Longsword fencing and halberd/pollaxe fencing are two completely different beasts.

Certainly different, but from personal experience, not dramatically different. Longsword and Rapier are more different, at least in my HEMA training, than longsword and polearm are. Or at least far more carries over from longsword than from something like rapier.

The length of the pole usually is just too long to maneuver freely around your body, keeping the momentum going.

Again, in my limited, personal experience, definitely not true at all. Polearms can be very fluid, and because the momentum is so much more than with a sword, you NEED to learn how to deflect and flow movements from one to another to not get caught off guard.

Also, yes he can do 2 sweeps back to back with halberd, but the 2nd sweep should be a upward swing with the back of the staff. Which also won’t use momentum from the 1st sweep.

Weirdly specific, and not objective, but sure. I’m certainly not trying to say that a second sweep shouldn’t look more different from the first.

Block cancelling is not the same as a fully fleshed attack combo. I would hardly call it a combo, and prefer not to use it at all. Heavy sweep on the other hand - now is tied with the Light sweep very tightly, so the ridiculousness is forced.

I don’t see how it’s different than combo, but that’s neither here or there for me. I see what you’re saying, and changing the animation for heavy attack would make it look a bit more natural, whether that’s the attack coming from a different angle, or a better animation of rolling the weapon back to the same side rather than just moving it back along the same path. But I would also argue that light sweep > heavy sweep is no more enforced than light > block > light was, considering that was its only real option previously.

They tried that in the mod realm. Felt bad, looked worse

Edit: to expand on that, the mod’s first iteration straight up removed the stabs, and also gave it flat stat buffs iirc. It dumbed the weapon down too much and wasn’t very fun to play with because Kruber was swinging a stick with an axe on the end like a wiffle bat.

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I still don’t see how thats a bad thing, the weapon was fun and had access to every attack. Not everything should be easily acessible without going trough some other attacks in the chain. But thanks for answering :slight_smile:

I think we can amicably agree to disagree. To me, it feels weird and frustrating to have attacks that technically do everything, but are hidden behind ones that you’re not really going to want to use in the same context, at least not in halberd where the attacks are relatively slow. But I can understand liking the shuffled feel as well, even if I do not.

that makes me curious. Can you give a video or image example of the momentum transfering from one attack into another? Halberd or pollaxe, with human height length or more.

Edit: What i’m really curious about, is how can you do wide sweeps one after another with such a weapon, transfering the momentum.

you could use old halberd w/o block canceling lights though, with stacked 40% AS on Merc.
The forced part is, that i might want to use Heavy 2 sweep for its own - it’s good for Paced strikes proccing, and i like wide sweeping attacks with a long hit duration, the hit area is easily extendable with mouse movement.

Fair enough.
It was unique for halberd tho and not underperforming at all in cataclysm. (Except heavy sweep cuz f*ck that, before change)

I mean i would argue that if new halberd didn’t have heavy sweep stat change that block cancelling would still be the only choice, but i didn’t test so idk, just speculating.