Grenade Overhaul

Problem: grenades are, most often, used in a critical situations. Where you need quickly throw one to save yourself or teammate. You dont have time to press a button, watch swapping animation, press another button to throw and watch throwing animation. That’s too long.

Solution: Make a way to throw grenades with a single button and see that bad boi fly out instantly. Pretty much how Zealot knives work. I’ve been thinking on way to do it.
Developers can add another button for a quick throw. But that means extra button to have and regular grenades will be moved to number 4 on keyboard (1 melee, 2 ranged, 3 medpack/ammo crate/grim/scripture, 4 grende, 5 stimpack, 6 auspex scanner)
But that’s not really good idea from game design perspective. And also it’s not a good solution for console players. So i think we need a complete overhaul on how Blitz abilities work and used.

Implementation: Current button for blitz will have 2 modes. Press and hold. On pressing it instantly uses your blitz. On holding it performs a secondary option. We already have similar mechanic on Zealot’s Fury of the Faithful ability. When on press it just charges forward few metres. But on hold you can target enemy and charge into him on much further distance.

  • All the grenades (immolation, stun, frag, krak, smoke, ogryn sized frag, box of hurt)
    On press will be just thrown into aimed direction, while you have your weapon out (just like zealot knives). The distance wont be very far, as it quick action.
    On hold it will highlight the trajectory of grenade so you can throw it further and aim where it lands, like we already have on holding RMB.

  • Underthrow for a grenades, in my opinion, is a useless feature. We not playing tactical shooter, no point or benefits to using that. But, if Fatshark wants this so badly - it can be tweaked on holding blitz button. If trajectory of grenade is within 3-5m from player model - it changes to underthrow. If it’s longer than 3-5m - it becomes an arc.

Now let’s talk about other blitz abilities.

  • Rock.
    Unlike regular grenade it will fly as usual on quick throw. So you can dispatch distant enemies like you already do. But quick throw will have reduced stagger, so you wont be able to stun enemy ogryns and monstrosities.
    Holding the button not only will allow you to aim, but you will now be able to knock down crushers, reapers and stagger monstrosities with headshots.

  • Knives.
    They already work fine as they are on quick throw.
    On holding the button - zealot will pull out 3 knives and throw them in a fan. These knives wont pierce first target. But will hit several enemies. It doesnt sound very useful and exciting, so let’s balance it out with inflicted bleed on these blades. Like, each blade inflicts 6-10 stacks of bleed to it’s target. Which works amazing with Scourge talent that gives you +10% crit chance against bleeding enemies.

  • Smite.
    On pressing the blitz button it will unleash a quick zap of 3-5 enemies infront of you, staggering them for 1-2s.
    On holding it will act as holding RMB currently. Spreading lightning between enemies and staggering them.

  • Assail.
    On press will work just like it already does with LMB.
    On hold will charge one shard just like it does with RMB.

  • Brainburst.
    On press it should instantly pop brain of target you aiming at, at the cost of reduced dmg (by like 50%) and increased peril generation (like 10-20%). It’s just a way for psykers do not get squished by crusher or mauler. Since this brainburst will stagger them.
    On hold it will work just as holding LMB on brainburst. Let’s be honest, nobody using RMB on brainburst anyway, especially since holding LMB currently no longer resets the charge if your target died, so you can switch to another and kill it.

I was thinking about something with this ability to select multiple enemies with brainburst and deal dmg to them at the cost of higher peril generation. But i’d rather have a talent on this blitz, that hits random mob in vicinity of your target if you kill it with brain burst (something like a Chain Reaction)

So with this overhaul you dont need to swap your weapon and i feel like it will make more players use grenades. I barely see players using their grenades and i assume that’s because it takes too much effort to pull them out and it’s easier to just shoot your gun.

Edit: people seems to be confused by what i mean. So here are few screenshots of how it should look like. It still plays all the animation. It still requiers you to dodge and move. It still forces you to take decisions whether or not it is safe to throw a grenade. All it does - removes the unnecessary swapping to the grenade by changing the “select grenade” button with “use grenade” button.
So here how it will look like:

  • Animation for pressing G button. You clicked G, animation of pulling grenade out, pulling the pin and throwing grenade. With a single button press. Without swapping the weapon

  • Animation for pressing and holding G button. You press and hold G, animation of pulling grenade out, pulling the pin and aiming where you want to throw it. With a single button press. Without swapping the weapon

  • How it looks like when you threw your grenade while holding weapon

  • Animation for pressing G to use Assail Blitz. You press G. The shard instantly flies out in aimed direction. While you still holding your weapon

  • Animation for holding G with Assail. You hold G. The shard appears and you aim at somebody like you do with holding RMB. On release it flies out to kill that particular enemy

  • Animation for pressing G to use Smite Blitz. You press G. The smite instantly zaps few enemies in front. stunning them for short duration

  • Animation for holding G to use Smite Blitz. You hold G. The smite charges and you can use it as channeling lightning while holding your weapon. On release smite stops and you can use your weapon without swapping to it.

Obviously not all weapons are fitting for such mechanics. The ogryn gauntlet grenade launcher and shield, for example, require individual animations. But it’s not something hard to do.

5 Likes

Arma 3 allows you to bind keys to Double tap functions. That way if you want a precise throw you use the Shift+G to use Ace’d throw function but if you need a grenade right now and aren’t as particular about where it lands you just double tap it.

Also prevents friendly fire incidents caused by single tapping the keystroke.

3 Likes

Yes, and that’s normal.
And it’s what make throwing knife “strong” when it doesn’t have much strength.


Underthrow grenades explode faster iirc, @Reginald do you know if it’s the case or not ?

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No idea. Might be worth testing, could be really handy if true.

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from my experience with grenades - they explode whenether the frag they want. I use underthrow as a habit. Since i’m playing a lot of veteran and used to throw grenade right under the crushers so it will inflict double the bleed from explosion of grenade itself and from fragmentaions. I believe it was fixed. But the habit remains.

So sometimes they explode almost instantly. Sometimes they explode normal. Sometimes they dont explode at all and just dissapear into the Warp

yeah, that’s good idea. But Arma is a tactical military simulator. Darktide is horde shooter, more arcady. We shouldnt overwhelm players with such mechanics. It must be simple, short and useful by both PC and console playerbase.

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I’m opposed. You’re supposed to plan around these weaknesses. You can also dodge while drawing and preparing a grenade. If you’ve waited until you’re totally swampped before you’re even readying a grenade then that is a misplay and the consequences are appropriate.

8 Likes

it’s called “unnecessary complications”.

Let’s add that you lose ammo if you reload with half-empty magazine. Or even better a limited amount of magazines which retain ammunition it has after reload, like Tarkov. Let’s add that your grenades deal dmg to you. Let’s add that you need to sharpen your weapon.
Why not. You’re supposed to plan around these weaknesses.

If a game mechanic requiers you to perform extra actions for the sake of artificially increasing the difficulty - that’s a bad design. Once again - Darktide is an arcade horde shooter, not a tactical simulator. It doesnt need such complications for the sake of complications.

I don’t think it’s comparable.

Friendly fire (Which exist in VT2) isn’t present because it would go way to fast, those ammo systems would be to difficult to play well within a tide game.

As for the “unnecessary complications” as you call it, if we start to take it out for the grenades/blitzes, would you consider it to be normal to be taken out for the heavier ranged weapons ? (Bolter, Flamers…).

This mechanic work, because it let the tool be more powerful

wasnt talking about friendly fire. Was talking about grenades dealing dmg to YOU, the one who threw them. As it you, getting dmged by your own grenade bouncing off the obstacle will be the “consequences of your misplay”. Yet such feature isnt present, why?

If mechanic has its strong and weak sides - yes, you may say, that you must play around it’s weaknesses to recieve it’s strengths.
But in this case - what’s strengths does this mechanic offers to you? Why cant you just press/hold button and recieve the same result, but just spend less time doing it.
What benefits it gives to you, as a player, to manually select the grenade and only then throw it.

None. It gives no benefits over the press/hold mechanic. Yet it has drawbacks. So if it has no benefits and has drawbacks - what’s the point of such mechanics to exist?

If Darktide was a tactical shooter - then yes, slow and methodic approach to weapons, being as close to realistic as possible, would be a reason for such mechanic to exist. But we playing arcade horde shooter. There not a single reason to have such complicated way to throw grenades.

And your example, which i assume you suggesting “let’s remove the time needed to pull out bolter/flamethrower” - works against you. Because these weapons are not used by playerbase for that exact reason. It’s takes too much time to pull out these weapons and it’s easier to use any other weapon. And we know that because when bolter was buffed - a lot of people started using it. Because it’s strengths outweighted it’s weaknesses. To the point where devs nerfed bolter back.

With current model of using grenades - there is no strengths and a lot of weaknesses. To the point, where people NOT using grenades even in Auric Damnation difficulties.

Placing some wind-up animations in the way of grenades isn’t some ‘artificial difficulty increase’ so much as a way to introduce consideration into your actions. This kind of design is extremely prevalent in the game and I like it. Helps make it feel like your actions are weighty and important which is a key feature of this game.

Grenades are really strong so it also makes sense to give them a bit of heft. The current configuration makes them really easy to aim, too. Just do be careful you don’t get swiped at while you’re priming one!

Also, one good reason to drop a grenade is so you don’t have to point your camera at the floor to throw it at your feet. I also think it feels badass!

Wrong. GRENADES are the strength of using grenades! :smiley:

In my experience grenades are still used in Auric (possibly more so). You just gotta be extra careful!

3 Likes

The only problem I have with using grenades is that the issue of weapons not switching when you press the key occasionally.

3 Likes

Either you dont understand what i mean. Either i dont understand what you mean.

I’m not against placing wind-up animations. There will be animation of you lowering your weapon, pulling grenade and throwing it. The same animation you have when you press LMB to throw grenade you holding in hands.

I’m against switching off my weapon, pulling out grenade that i hold in hands, then pressing the throw button. Remove unnecessary steps, that give you NOTHING.

Grenades are strong. And you know what weakness do they have? THEY ARE LIMITED. Strength of grenades compensated by it’s limited amount and need to search map for grenade boxes.
And i’m NOT talking about grenades. i’m talking about MECHANIC that these grenades using.
The configuration i proposed has nothing different, from the one currently in the game. By holding the G button you will have the same aiming as by holding RMB.

There is a problem with the game in how it sometimes cannot swap back to weapon you were holding after some actions. The easiest to repeat this problem is stimpacks. Go into Meat Grinder, pick up stim pack, use it. After you used stimpack you will be switched to your weapon, right?
Now pick up stimpack, use it and instantly pick up another one. All of the sudden you DO NOT switch to your weapon and holding stim in hand. There is no point in such mechanic, as stimpack effects do not stack and just change to new one. And in combat scenario where you quickly trying to use your stim and pick up another one - you left with necessity to switch to your weapon manually.

Let me explain it more simply. Maybe people dont understand my words.

Currently, to use quickly throw a grenade, you need to: press G, press LMB
to throw your grenade more accurately, you need to: press G, hold LMB, release LMB.

In version i proposed, to quickly throw a grenade, you need to: press G
to throw your grenade more accurately, you need to: Hold G, press LMB

You see how it removes the one unnecessary step, that does nothing in terms of game mechanics. The only thing you can do with your grenade by selecting it - is to Inspect it like other weapons. But if you think it does and what it does is better than the version i proposed - feel free to enlighten me

People really confused by the difference between USING grenades and the MECHANIC OF USING grenades.

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I know an underhand rock is faster to pull and toss than overhead on Ogryn. Also different flight path.

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Yep I have mistaken you and I can see how a quick-throw would be nice to have. I am pretty much never against key customisation, especially advanced options that make your actions feel more fluid within the provided constraints! To extend your idea, you could have something like:

Quick-throw: tap G
Aim: hold G
Underhand: hold G + right click

It may be that the grenades – “Blitz” – is in part the way it is for consistency across classes (looking at you, Psyker). I’ve definitely had issues equipping grenades, though I’ve managed to solve mine with practice and alternative keybinds. Not saying this is ideal, or a non-issue.

As for grenade underhand, to replicate short throw distance with an overhand you must point your camera down. This is probably more of an issue for controller users.

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yeah! exactly!

I still not sure whether or not it’s better to hold G and throw on release. Or hold G and click LMB to throw aimed grenade (with trajectory arc).

As throwing on release may waste a grenade if you decided not to throw.

Yes. The only thing I want is for the blitz button to actually activate the blitz ability not just be a glorified hotkey to pull it out.

I don’t like having the ability to accidentally switch to it when scrolling between melee and ranged and now whoops suddenly I an tossing a grenade silly me.

Make the blitz button use the blitz ability. Press twice to pull it out and keep it out (if you want to toss more than one this would then be faster), press once to instant toss as soon as it is swapped to and press-and-hold to wind it up after the swap finishes. On the press and press-and-hold “quick” swap throws, instantly swap back to whatever weapon you were just using.

I do not mind the swap (I mean have you ever tried to pull the pin on a grenade and throw it while holding a weapon? Yeah, don’t, it is super cumbersome), I do mind that my scroll wheel lets me scroll to the blitz and equipment though, that really messes me over sometimes because that is unnecessary swap clutter. Press button, swap to grenade, toss grenade, swap back to weapon. One input.

People do not properly use their grenades, because they lack the awareness to remember that they have a grenade in the first place, and because they are lacking the awareness to see when a situation warrants the use of a grenade.
Pretty sure that there is not a single person who does not use grenades, because they have to go through the long process of swapping to the grenade first, which takes about 0 seconds.

Btw it is not just about “swapping to the grenade“ but about “putting away the weapon you have in your hands“.
A throwing knife only needs one hand to be used, so you can throw it while wielding your gun/melee.
A grenade requires both hands to use, so of course you first have to put your weapon away.

Even when you are in melee combat, you can pull out a grenade and throw it, if you use your ability to push and dodge.

1 Like

Only changes I’d like to see would be adding the ability to cook the grenade. Also more bouncing, based on the trajectory.

2 Likes

Just pulling the pin, could be the weapon special.
Still holding the grenade when it blows up, might warrant some self damage.

Now if it was always required to press a button to pull the pin every single time, i would have to agree with op, in the ragard that THIS would be an “unnecessary complication“.