GK = FK v 1.1

Before I get my face chewed off, hear me out.

I main Kruber, and mostly Foot Knight although I do play HS quite a lot too.

Although the talents for the GK are different, the actual playstyle within the game is virtually the same - except the GK’s (arguably) more powerful talent tree and the buffs from the Vow’s make killing things slightly easier - thus removing some of the restrictions on FK without there being too many downsides. GK is lots of OP fun, I grant you that.

Playing as GK is the same -in-game muscle memory experience as FK.

Playing as GK using Greatsword in slot 1 and Sword and Shield in slot 2 and playing exactly the same as I did playing FK gives significantly better results with no need to change anything at all. ( well obviously not exactly the same as there’s no repeater gun but you get what I mean)

I’m looking for a reason to play FK ever again, and I can’t really think of one. Whenever I consider the CC, I think “well the best CC is a heap of dead things” so if you can kill something it doesn’t matter whether the crowd is controlled or not - they’re dead.

There’s the ranged weapon missing, but with the Flame Resistant shield the threats are Hooks, Leeches and Assassins really, with assassins being the only ones causing damage straight away.

As an aside, I don’t know if it’s a bug but I think the GK shield doesn’t block Stormfiend flames, although I haven’t scrutinised the description to see if it specifically states flame rats or flames in general.

So tell me why I’d pick FK, or even better tell me why YOU’D prefer a FK to play alongside.

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Tankiness, ranged.

GK is squishy af in comparison and can’t handle like 10+ stacked elites for a decent amount of time to get out of it alive. He lacks defensive talents, like literally any defensive talents.

That’s my most recent impression after finishing the first 120 weaves with a FK on my team rather than a GK (who started to get mangled around 80ish).

PS: GK shield does indeed not block Stormfiend flames.

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I would add to that a very mobile and useful ult to get out of a lot of situations.
For example :

  • Accessing and killing an elite way behind a stacked horde, or some totem
  • Throw bosses from ledges (which happens a lot in weaves).
  • Running away to revive someone.
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I agree the FK should feel more tanky, but it’s ye olde debate of Merc vs FK.

I think with the talent buffs in most situations GK can be a better pick. Weaves 80+ are still quite niche really.

I agree he is squishier and can get downed by a patrol by overheads very easily, but his with Sword and shield (Or the blasphemy of Imperial Sword and Shield) he can tough it out and gain the THP on stagger burst from the Imp Shield opening shield bash.

@Froh The point about the charge as a panic button is quite valid though - especially when there’s stacked banners or a banner plus Mino.

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Currently there’s several things that GK can’t do “easily”.

  • His ult is not as safe as it could be (Kinda the same than Bounty Hunter one in terms of wind-up but in melee which is less safe) and can also miss pretty easily if you try to play it safer (the range is not that great).
  • I would add that this is not a GK issue, but probably more a FK issue (it’s a career that requires a bit of love for months right now). The charge being a bit wonky and doesn’t make you invincible “by default”, is in my opinion, the thing to change here. But that could be other stuff.
  • FK is also far better for Stagger oriented builds (more control) than GK. Which is also useful in cata or cata+.
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GK’s ult vulnerability is the other end after you’ve swung it I think. there’s quite a gap before you regain control and can take a cheeky hit there.

My therapist says I’m not to talk about the FK ult, getting stuck on a leaf, getting hit during it, getting pounced when you’re ten feet away because the assassin hit-reg is still on the beginning of the charge, and so on. reaches for medicine

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Both Merc and FK are way more durable, selfreliant and partyenabling than GK. As long as some of the talents aren’t reworked (e.g. tHP regain after hit) or completely changed, GK is only the third best pick for high difficulty content.

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I agree for the most part but I’d say GK’s ability to delete elites and chunk out bosses (or cliff them with the double knockback) is pretty valuable

idk I’d rank him above FK, below huntsman as far as Kruber careers go…not even gonna go into Merc because, frankly, walk it off needs nerfing but also his tool kit is just inherently the best if we’re talking about coordinated/tryhard teamplay

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Yeah I also think Mercenary is ridiculous. Genuinely a crutch to use when in stuff like C3O. Spamming his ability every 30-45 seconds meanwhile having the blending power of someone like Zealot, pretty absurd. Deliberately have to gimp myself with meme builds to feel more balanced.

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As much as i’d like to agree with the OP post i also really have to disagree with the stance. The more i play GK the more i find scenarios where i wish i simply had the dam ranged weaponry or that bit of extra tankiness to not get instantly destroyed in those odd cases you do get hit once or a lot.

The lack of any sort of flexibility when playing GK i think is really its greatest strength and also the greatest weakness. It works extremely well in compositions where special killing is on point but pair him with slayer for instance and it can be a total nightmare.

At the very least you can throw FK/Merc into every composition you can imagine and not be gimping your party in the process.

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I can imagine cata pubs that end up with both a GK and Slayer potentially struggling with special pressure for sure

Edit: just wanna say I’m really enjoying this thread so far :smile:

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I think I had that case in a cataclysm PUG yesterday. Wasn’t that much of a problem honestly. As a lot of players specialize on specials, you have nearly everytime at least one dedicated player for these. And this is more or less enough.

Personally, I have played GK only a veeeerryy easy Deeds myself so I can’t say much. But as I mainly play Unchained on Cataclysm PUGS I want to say that the 10 % damage reduction and health regeneration are an incredibly powerful buff for me. Same for Ironbreaker. So he may not be tanky himself but he increase team tankiness by quite a bit.

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GK is very much the dps-knight, but I am glad he doesn’t have as much damage reduction as FK. The differences in tankiness is clear and that means there’s still that option available which is great.

But as far as them having the same playstyle, probably a result of similar weapons and needing a shield and Virtue of Joust for survival.

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I think you have to make a distinction between GK vs. FK’s role and GK vs. FK’s power.

I think the role / playstyle of GK is different enough from that of FK. FK has more of a supportive / controlling / protective presence. He can hold off a mixed horde all by himself, he can make space for his teammates where needed, he can get to a teammate in trouble to assist, he can deal with specials well before they become a problem, and in some circumstances he can even control a monster. A FK with good situational awareness can make the run go a lot more smoothly for his teammates this way. None of these things GK can really do, or do nearly as well. Rather, GK is an effective and versatile frontline killing machine. He has decent control and survivability because of his double melee weapon, but he can’t fulfill the true role of a FK.

So, if that’s all so, why do you feel GK makes FK obsolete, then? I think the answer is twofold:

Firstly, in by far most of the situations in this game (as much as it pains my heart to say this) bringing a controller like FK or Ironbreaker is completely redundant. Players with enough skill to handle the difficulty level of the content are almost always better off bringing a class with good killing power. Only on stuff like modded content or high weaves the choice for a controller becomes more attractive. Even on Cata quickplays this is not really so, however.

Secondly, GK is more powerful in his role than FK is in his. By this I mean GK kills better than FK controls. That’s a power disparity that also matters. Partly this is also caused by issues like bugs with FK’s ult and such that make him less reliable.

Another thing that happens is that a lot of players try to equip and play FK as a damage dealer because of above reasons, which unfortunately he can’t do nearly as well, which is another reason people become disappointed in him.

Funnily enough, I think GK is way more in the niche of Mercenary than in the niche of FK. The reason nobody is asking why they should ever play Merc now that we have GK is that Merc is simply more powerful than GK, however.

Sidenote: I have actually been enjoying GK a lot in the little time I could play him. The style of always being in the enemy’s face and his flexibility in melee with his double melee slot are super fun to play. Even though I’d pick Merc when I’d really need to tryhard something, I’d prefer GK most of the time. But I enjoy the more supportive / controlling role a FK can do tremendously, because it just resonates with me as a person really well. For me the existence of GK won’t make me like FK any less. I do want to see FK buffed to be as good in his role as GK is in that of his, however. As far as I can judge with my limited playtime, I feel the power level of GK could be a good standard to aim for with future balance patches.

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ye its true with GK and that new shield you actually can keep control way better than FK endless staggering with 60% stam reco in horde attack killing everything with bash, after finish elites with secondary weapon if there is anything left …and your team mates can just stand behind you and shoot all the specialist, or Berserkers front of you if they goes rampage in cata (same time boring career in cata) …lower difficulties like legend you can do more offensive things safely like throw shield off and take mace and sword for fun quick clearing .

For me I play FK for fun, simple as that. The ability to plow a line through a horde (or stop short), knock multiple CWs on their butts for several seconds, stun a boss and apply a party-wide damage increase against it… I just enjoy being a bloody battering ram! Not everything needs to be about doing big damage or having optimal stats (although I wouldn’t say no to a FK buff). Fun is subjective, however, so of course not everyone will like aspects of FK over another career.

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Try him with the new 2h sword. :slight_smile:

GK loses a lot of CC and Attack Speed compared to Merc and FK, so the playstyle is different imo. You need support on Hordes where on FK and Merc you can survive or kill them with ease. You lose the CC Ultimate.

GK edge over FK and Merc is his burst and Boss damage. His Ult, obviously, but he can also run a safer, faster Weapon with Exe Sword, and switch to it whenever he needs to blow something up.

The way I see each Kruber Career is this:
FK - enable team to kill everything and make ridiculous amounts of space to mitigate damage
Merc - kill every enemy in the game and spam an OP support ult
GK - play as a DPS focus Elites/Bosses, support group via buffs and frontlining with a shield, but with less CC than FK (only if you need to play defensive
Huntsman - shoot everything possible, with RH being one of the best Special killing Weapons in the game

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Ill correct this for you:
FK - enable your enemies to kill your team with his bugged charge, while maybe creating space depending on the number of armored targets and what stagger state they want to enter
Merc - Farm waves for days, and most elites depending on your weapon, but deal pitiful amount of Monster and Boss dps, while helping out with minor THP and big DR every one plus minutes.
GK - Play melee class with no option to help out the team when crap goes wild, while offering 20% damage to every elite and 5% crit after every elite ki… Ah… wait… that was WHC. You grant two random buffs that might or might not be useful.
Huntsman - Have perfect breakpoints for Legend, and get the life completely sucked out of you when you cant oneshot simple cata specials with your bow. Worse than Waystalker, or BH in any way unless you run Blunder.

The truth is simply that Merc and Huntsman are the only two careers that are in a good spot. Merc more than Huntsman. Knight got destroyed by the silly CounterPunch nerf, his still bugged charge and the fact that there isnt anything he can do better than others. Especially IB just laughs at him with his Gromnil Cursed armor, which is nothing but Valiant Charge on a 20 sec CD with inbuilt invulnerability. GK is nothing but a horrible version of a Shade.

There is a reason Kruber is the least played Hero and once the bling of a new career vanished that will reinstate itself rather quickly unless they start tweaking GK soon and hopefully the other Krubers once the BBB comes around.

His Ult can be buggy, yes, but FK has had high representation since Weaves began in the top 100.

This is because of the space he can create and for no other reason. Being able to AoE stun multiple Elites, including multiple Chaos Warriors and Bosses is huge.

The Talent was too strong, and would allow him to stand inside a Skaven Patrol alone spam pushing forever. I did it multiple times. It’s still not even bad, as it still allows you to get 2 pushes off.

He can create Stagger on the same levels as Unchained (conflag) and Slayer (CDR build). While having the ability to stun Bosses and Chaos Warriors too. His added survival while doing this, and the ability to use Shield Weapons, is what makes him better than Slayer and Unchained in higher difficulties.

Well Gromril is 20 seconds. Charge is 30 seconds, and can be reduced by hitting. You could also run CDR on Trinket to make it an even lower Cooldown. The Charge has more potential for CC than Gromril Curse too, as you can charge through multiple enemies and knock over bigger Elites.

This including the AS, Invincibility and 20% damage increase Talents make it more than good enough.

Monsters are his weakness. So what? He’s good against every other enemy in the game. Merc is arguably one of the best melee Careers in the game, because of the Limsplitter build, Greatsword and Repeater Handgun, and his passive Crit.

The THP is more than enough to help your team maintain through the map. The damage reduction is completely broken when combo’d with other DMGR passives and Barkskin. DMGR or the THP would be enough to make this Ultimate insane. The fact that he gets both is OP.

From what I’ve seen, it’s a widely held opinion that this is the strongest support Ultimate in the game, so I’m unsure as to why you’re trying to talk it down. It’s the most forgiving Ultimate in the game, that enables your team to play more aggresively and gives them space to make mistakes.

Don’t think I need to go into any more of the utility of this Ult tbh.

Shield Weapons and fast Elite clearing are his role. That’s how he helps his team. His buffs also enable your team to deal more damage and survive for longer, so there’s less risk of a wipe if things do go bad.

I don’t understand this argument. He can have 3, 2 that are buffed, or guarantee STR pots.

5% Attack Speed is good no matter what build in the game you’re playing.
10% Power is good no matter what build in the game you’re playing.
Regen is good for every build in the game except Zealot.
10% CDR is good no matter what build in the game you’re playing.
10% DMGR is good no matter what build in the game you’re playing.

Power and AS are the strongest, with CDR potentially being stronger depending on your team comp. These are hardly nothing and enable your team to deal more damage, removing more threats, making the game go smoother. This is what GK does for his team.

Give him a Purple and a Boss and he’ll delete it.

This is completely untrue for so many reasons.

Firstly, his one-shot Elite Ultimate is on a 40second CD, reduced by attacking. Hers is on a 1 Minute Cooldown, reduced by attacking.

He can kill two Elites with it much easier than she can. Or he can get Movement Speed, or play the Cleave Talent.

Edit: I was wrong about Cleave not being too good on Cata, it’s actually pretty good if you go for Power, and also go for headshots on CW. You lose the Boss damage though.

His Ultimate has in-build CC. Hers doesn’t.

He is better against Bosses because of this. Given a Conc Pot, the better choice is GK, because he can land more Ultimates and keep the Boss CC’d while doing it. With the exception of headshot build Shade, which when put against GK is a more risky strat.

He doesn’t require backstabs for his one-shot mechanic, so is at less risk of taking damage.

He has a bigger health pool. 180 HP vs 120 HP. While having a less risky playstyle, and Weapons with more Stagger than Shade.

You can get the Gutter Runner breakpoint, which is probably the only one worth getting at Cata level. He also gets one-shot body shot breakpoints with Crits, of which you have 15% passively and a potential of 40% with the Talent, after a headshot. Add this on to Maim, and he has more than enough to kill Specials with this Weapon. There’s also the fact that he can use his Ultimate to kill them, instead of wasting it on Elites someone else could be killing.

Congrats, now you’re playing that build, you’re also good against Bosses and Elites, with 1-shot breakpoints with a Crit body on SV, Bestigors, Maulers and Berserkers.

He’s the most skill dependent ranged class in the game, whose skill to payoff potential is huge.

As someone who mains WS, Huntsman is just as good, but takes more skill.

You’re also comparing one Ranged Weapon to WS and BH, when he has others.

I don’t know why, but everytime I see Huntsman discussion, Repeater Handgun is never talked about. It’s literally the best Ranged Weapon bar none. You can get one-shot Gutter Runner breakpoints and Maim to double tap everything else, you can then take CDR to make dealing with Specials even easier, and then you can just run Spear for melee and GG, you’re OP.

This was with Repeater Handgun:

Imgur

He completely removes Specials from the game if played right. With Specials gone, our team is at no risk whatsoever from anything else, if they have decent positioning.

The only bad Ranged Weapon on him is the Handgun, because you just get out-pressure from using it, and missing heads is way too unforgiving, while under the constant pressure.

Straight up incorrect. Check the Weave top 100 for the past seasons and now. He’s always in the top and FK more than most others.

We don’t know how much by, and representation doesn’t = bad balance.

I don’t see why GK isn’t going to be around for a long time, his mechanics are fun for the entire team, he’s fun and fills his role. He looks great. It may even convince people to play his other roles more, as Merc is better than him anyway, because of the busted Ult.

And also:

I’ve never seen someone come across this arrogantly and be so wrong.

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Hey not trying to start anything, but doesn’t GK’s ult have a 40 second cooldown?

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