GK = FK v 1.1

Yes. Sorry. I even got it wrong for what mine is. lol

I’m running CDR, so it’s 36 seconds.


The weave leaderboard is not a good indicator for adventure mode balance. You’re conflating balance in weaves with adventure mode balance. Both the mechanics of weaves like damage scaling and scripted spawns and exploits like, camping safespots, ledging hordes of enemies and since S2, and despawning of enemies by speedrunning (which now gives essence) drastically alter the meta from traditional play in adventure mode.

Speedrunning to the end of a map and despawning everything in 2 minutes, then ledging everything in 3 minutes in the arena with a shield isn’t how adventure mode maps usually play out.


I agree that FK with the stagger-everything build and THP on stagger can be almost unkillable, but using the Imperial Shield GK can climb close to those heights too (on legend at least). Bashing things around and killing things to get the talent that stacks power means the Imp Shield push stab becomes far more effective - especially for jabbing elites in a horde. Shield bash followed by GK horizontal Ult has saved me SO MANY TIMES from a hook/zerkers in a horde that would’ve been knocked out of range by FK ult, and come back for a second go or run off to hook someone else.

The FK ult buggyness can largely be mitigated by Numb to Pain, but I get a bit frustrated that I’m funneled into one choice to stop bugs rather than because it’s the best choice.

In some ways we’re talking about what has hindered FK for…ever? He doesn’t feel like he’s contributing as much as he could/should. Everyone else does everything just a little bit better than him. His niche is slowly being closed right down to being CC and in a game where killing things happens so fast that CC is largely obsolete, people are always going to pick Merc/GK over FK as they feel more useful when they’re lawnmowing through things.


Weaves is still a good indicator of high level play, regardless of the things you’ve pointed out. I don’t think you can claim that every team in the top 100 is abusing, and definitely not speed running.

Even if not Weaves, I’ve got lots of experience in Cata+, where those characters are more than capable.

Weaves shouldn’t be used as indicator of how balanced something is in the rest of the game though, weave gameplay/objectives are fundamentally different from adventure maps outside the hack and slash aspect

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Well they’re more than capable in the base adventure mode too.

But the point is, people saying that things are weak when they’re being played in some of the hardest content doesn’t add up.

My point was that the best evidence for that would be framed from adventure mode.

It doesn’t make sense to conflate meta across different gamemodes (gamemode and difficulty dictate what is meta). If Fatshark decided to do a dumb game mode ( that was colossally hard) that involved replacing every enemy with railing gunners that oneshot you with perfect tracking, that would be a very different meta.

For a more realistic example, Tzeentchian twins+other mutators changes the balance relative to regular Cataclysm. Flamethrowers are gamebreakingly powerful in high density gamemodes such as twins, less so on regular Cataclysm.

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And this highlights the issue with talking about this games balance. Playing legend exclusively has totally different parameters when compared to say Cata or weaves. Legend even in its current state is better just by spamming as much damage as possible and making the runs extremely safe that way where as in Cata and especially in weaves this mentality starts to lose some of its value.


There isn’t really a meta for adventure mode though. You can literally play anything you want. The person was claiming that Kruber was bad and I was arguing that he wasn’t. In fact, the only meta that apparently exists has him in it.

I don’t see how using Weaves as an example of the fact that he’s good is bad in any way, to be honest. If that’s the argument.

That’s hyperbolic, the top two teams in S2 quartet did not use Kruber at all.

With adequate skill, you could say the same for any game mode or difficulty, but balance is a consideration all the same. If meta doesn’t exist in adventure mode because the difficulty’s too easy, it’s not an idea I agree with.

Being good in weaves means he’s good in weaves, it’s not good evidence for him being good in adventure maps because the balance is simply different. Nothing more to discuss if that isn’t a distinction you consider important.

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But he was in the majority of others, which means he’s good enough to be in the top 100. That’s my argument. He’s good in that game mode.


I agree, but I was using Weaves top 100 as an example of him being good in a specific game mode. I didn’t specify that my whole post was entirely based on him being good in Weaves.

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It was just confusing because some people tend to throw that in as compelling evidence for adventure mode balance of characters and I took most of the discussion as being adventure mode related.

Back on topic, I don’t see FK overlapping in roles and capabilities too much with GK, not having a ranged weapon makes him play quite different.
However, FK does need all the bugs and weird interactions with his ult fixed, and a few of his talents (looking at “It’s Hero time” in particular) need some reworking.


Taal and Empire is objectivly better than Lileath and Bretonia