I’m sorry. There is simply no way that the devs play their own game.
I’ve got 1600 hours in Darktide, then put 200 into VT2.
General Combat/Gameplay?
Specials. Mostly character disables (unfun), often spawn behind you, and most offer little counterplay, other than keeping your head on a swivel and having a weapon capable of quickly one-or-two-shotting. I understand the design philosophy, but wow.
Puzzle Mechanics. They don’t belong in frenetic, fast paced action games like these Tide games. Absolute nonsense.
Level Design. Pretty - but easy to get lost. Hidden Tomes/Grims. I don’t have time or care enough to memorize locations. I haven’t been playing for years - there are too many levels at this point. Why can’t I have a mod that shows their location, ESPECIALLY since they’re static? Brings me to
Mod Support. Hot garbage. Darktide lets you mod and play with everyone, even console players. VT2 currently only has 31 sanctioned mods, almost a third of which are prereqs for other mods or were incorporated into the base game and obsolete. Removed Better Bots so they could update their own AI - after SEVEN YEARS?!? Bruh, I’d be so pissed if I were a solo-only type of player and they took that away from me. Removed Health Bars because they offer a “gameplay advantage.” True - but really? Is that so big of a deal? “Go play modded realm,” you say? “Garbage answer,” I say. Mods make Darktide much more replayable. Modders stopped caring about VT2 because most people aren’t going to play the modded realm.
Deeds are consumable. The community has been asking for customizable lobbies for a long time, it seems. After 7 years now - at no point have the devs expressed a willingness, openness, or even denial towards this.
Weapons that can’t deal with elites. Same problem DT has, to be fair. Weapons are almost balanced, but not quite. Do you really need to neuter most weapons’ ability to hurt armoured targets that much if it’s better at horde clear? No way.
Chaos Wastes?
Takes around or more than an hour.
Exploding Rats: not easily pushable, and do not explode other rats? It looks like the Darktide devs understood exactly how bad they are, but were able to create Poxbursters which actually offer counterplay for melee and explode each other. Why can’t the VT2 devs modify their own game based on that? Are they just too proud? Do they not listen to the community? They modified exploding rats a yearish ago to make them “easier” but they didn’t fix the core issue - they’re obnoxious and poorly designed for a melee game! How can you playtest them and think they’re honestly a good mechanic for the game? There’s just no way, man, there’s no way.
Nurgle-blessed: Hot garbage. Constant, almost instant gas cloud spread. You can’t ALWAYS kill them at range or have room to maneuver.
“More and better barrels” as a boon? Bruhh, omg. Thankkkssss, so much!
Your gear no longer matters? I guess, but why? Why is that a problem? Not all runs should be amazing, but shouldn’t your gear still matter? So you have your baseline? Then you just upgrade enough, become overpowered, or you struggle to beat the run without exceptional skill - why just filter that out? Questionable design IMO.
I know, I know. “git gud.” You’re not wrong, and I really believed that philosophy with DT, but VT2 is just so frustrating that I keep realizing: I am not willing to go through the pain. At times, it’s pretty great. Other times, and unfortunately it’s very often, I’m just bothered. The game is annoying! It’s annoying! It’s ANNOYING TO PLAY!
I am convinced the devs do not play their own game. I really want to like it, I really tried to love it, but I just don’t. I don’t see how you’re going to attract new players, or keep players. The game should not have such a low player count, but it does, and it’s 110% because of the poor mechanics that get in the way of me simply slaying bloody bastard vermin and agents of chaos, instead of just making it more fun. It’s the same problem World of Warcraft devs have - they make psychologically damaging, unfun mechanics for mythic dungeon runs, when there could be amazing, fun, chaotic modifiers.
Fatshark, you created something special, but in the end you dropped the ball. The players tell you what they want, but you Just. Don’t. Listen. I’m afraid DT will go the same way, if they can’t pull their heads out of their butts. Heavyhanded, very delayed updates are just not the way you run a “live service game.”
tldr; My squad of 4 random players got blown off at the same time immediately before finishing the very final event of the very final map of the weekly Chaos Run, because of some God-forsaken bomber-rats, and I hate this game.
The game has many annoying/frustrating moments usually caused by bugs like Blightstormers casting from miles away or behind the wall creating situations that simply cannot be solved, or stuck bots somewhere, or bots all dying to one Ratling/Warpfire…
I also completely understand your frustration with bomb rats. I had it the same way for a long time.
My solution is to simply play only proven maps. Don’t force yourself into something you don’t enjoy. I play Into the Nest only 90% of my playtime. There are no blightstormers, no places where bots get stuck and there are no beastmen, only skaven that are well balanced and fun to fight.
Another thing I recommend is not playing with random people. That can be the most frustrating thing of all. But that’s not FS’s fault. Join the Red Moon Inn discord, or another discord about V2, and play only with a pre-created group with voice chat, or with bots.
I really dig this game and I can understand what you’re coming from, but I think a few of your complaints are a bit dumb.
Darktide does the exact same thing but cranked up to 11. It basically demands constant vigilance against an unending onslaught of Trappers and Hounds. VT2 is pretty restrained in comparison.
I believe in the few areas where there are puzzles you need to solve, they essentially halt the regular enemy spawning routine so you can solve it. For example, in the lever room in Tower of Treachery, no enemies will spawn until you’re done in there. FWIW, I think it’s a nice break from the constant combat.
Real true, actually. Finding your way around is a skill you have to learn in both DT and VT2 and tomes and grims can be a PITA to get.
You shouldn’t be getting lost in missions or struggling with specials once practiced. Darktide specials are easier to kill and control, so the game spams an insane amount of them. I’m the reverse of you, ~3500 hrs in Vermintide 2, ~230 in Darktide. I can’t enjoy Darktide; OP blessings demand enemy spam/bloat, environments are dull metal heaps, dialogue is annoying/repetitive (I had to mod it off).
Many of your complaints are valid and often raised: bomb rats, barrel boons, Nurgle clouds, torch-carry segments or any segment where one player just doesn’t get to have fun “f*ck me, guess I’ll bite the bullet”, deed limits, useless crafting supplies/currencies, no mod support. Tome/grim runs can get toxic if players refuse or fail to grab them; not a fun challenge to cut health/item slots for most, though I don’t mind exploration/secrets. Versus is dead despite feedback. Devs clearly don’t play as much as the community, though many issues have been fixed over time.
Some feedback I disagree with: Chaos Wastes being ~1 hour is fine. I don’t find Vermintide 2 specials problematic; game sense and awareness solve that. People solo missions, even Cataclysm with multiple specials at one time on one player. In Darktide, spawns can be unfair (right out of doorways next to you). That said, specials in VT2 shouldn’t be so easily body blocked by standing literally inside of other enemies, nor should enemies stack inside each other obscuring them, since it causes unavoidable hits. So many times, I’ve had an ally move away from a hit that I take without any warning sound from an enemy that is completely obscured by the corner of a wall, or another enemy that they’re standing inside of.
Bomb rats: my advice is don’t play those missions, but if you must, build the right comp. Examples: Waystalker (Swift Bow + volley cooldown talents), Pyromancer (Beam Staff to stun/explode), Bounty Hunter (Griffinfoot Pistols), Ranger Vet (Shotgun), Outcast Engineer (Minigun + Shotgun backup). With comps like this, bomb rats are manageable. Even still, they’re lethal since they can appear during a horde/monster fight when you can’t reposition. It’s partially just luck to get through those.
Every special has unique counterplay. Yes, spotting them and quickly shooting them is one option, but it’s not the only one.
Hookrats: Their grab area is a cone. Move towards them and dodge to the side when they grab, and they won’t get you. Also, their rattles sound when moving is distinctive and with practice you can hear it even in a crazy horde.
Assassins: Most people when hearing an assassin span will switch to ranged, but that’s a good way to get pounced (or hit by another enemy while scanning for the assassin). Get your melee weapon out. Easiest way to deal is to dodge sideways when they pounce at you; then, work on pushing them out of the air as you dodge to the side. Eventually you get the timing down so you can just stare them down and push them when they’re leaping straight at you.
Life leech: these guys have a set timing. Dodge about a second after they spawn in and you’ll evade their soul-sucking grab every time. This works even if you’re pinned against something and can’t move, i.e. dodging in place.
Storm sorcerer: I’ll grant you that these guys can be difficult at times, especially when they teleport far away after spawning. However, the storm they summon is a tool you can use, it will pick up and hurl enemies too, so you can lure them into it. The most important counterplay is not getting cornered where you can’t evade a storm.
Gas rat: not getting cornered where you can’t escape is the major counterplay here too. As with storms, the gas will decimate enemies too, so you can use it to your advantage.
If you don’t have surround sound headphones, I highly recommend getting some and enabling surround sound in Windows settings (I use Windows Sonic for Headphones) and enabling 7.1 surround in Vermintide settings. It totally transforms the game and you’ll be able to pinpoint where specials are at just from sound. The same goes for all other enemies, the sound design of this game is truly top notch if you have the hardware to take advantage of it.
This is just your personal preference. You don’t have to do any of the puzzles, nor do you have to ever bother with tomes / grims. The puzzles especially don’t matter at all for the core gameplay loop. They’re all an added layer of gameplay and challenge for people who enjoy such; I have never paid much attention to any of them and focus on the combat, often protecting my puzzle-solving teammates when needed.
as for “easy to get lost”… well yeah, these levels are massive and intricate and beautiful, and many feature multiple paths to progress through. If you don’t like this and would rather be boxed in on a pre-defined “only one way to go” map… personal preference? I’d also advise paying more attention to character voice lines, because when you start going the correct direction, they will call it out.
You’re 100% right there. Mod support is abysmal, always has been. Deeds could have been so cool but they just suck.
All weapons can deal with elites. Some aren’t great at it because they prioritize horde clear. This is where the team focus of Vermintide becomes more relevant; if your teammate has great anti-elite kit, you can focus more on horde clear. If they’re rocking only horde clear stuff, maybe you should pick a more elite-focused weapon.
It can make quickplay with randos more challenging, but I’d much rather have this than “every weapon works equally well for everything”. The variety and different feel of the weapons (and their strengths/weaknesses) is one of the best parts of VT2 IMO.
You can also compensate within your own kit, if you have a horde clear melee weapon, take a ranged one that is strong against elites.
This is one of my favorite parts about it. Love a long epic campaign.
A gambling-style boon system only works when some are good and some are bad. This increases the dopamine reward of “oh yeah I got an awesome boon!” and keeps people coming back for more.
If all the boons are equally awesome, they quickly start feeling less exciting and players lose interest in the mode more quickly.
I think you’re kinda missing the point of the Chaos Wastes. The gear still matters, but instead of picking all of it going in, you’re getting semi-random gear as you move through the levels. The point is having to adapt and work with the gear you get along the way.
If gear matters to you, you can still control the most important parts of your gear (your weapons). Pick them at the start and only use upgrade shrines instead of random ones.
Then maybe it’s not the game for you so many of your complaints come down to personal preferences, simply not liking the game for what it is.
This guy gets it. You don’t have to play the modes or levels of the game that you don’t enjoy.
Ok ….and, of course this is always subjective AND I know I’m throwing in some nostalgia as well but for me at least I really really thoroughly enjoyed the puzzles as part of the Back to Uberseriek DLC. the block pressing puzzle, finding the various runes to unlock the secret map, and of course revisitng the old maps was really good.
I like these puzzle elements, and going back to VT1, having a *really really * F”*king weirdly hard puzzle to unlock the trial of the foolhardy was so good. The adrenalin spike knowing “I’M FINALLY IN” and “shitting hell it’s hard!”
The Achievement piercing the Veil in VT1 to unlock the secret map has 0.8% completion at nightmare (old Skool Legend) so I am definitely in the minority here.
Also, some of these point made by OP are not new. Specials went through a hellish time when their sound cues weren’t loud enough, hyperstacking hordes with 2 hookrats inside, , or assassins pinballed around stabbing the living t1ts out of everyone with virtually no breathing space.
And as for weapons, there have been weapons that are VERY good at horde clear and PRETTY good at Armour killing and they were just stupid at killing the teamwork or making one player far too OP and making the other players spectators. DLC weapons have been main culprits (to sell more obv and Moonfire bow is the first thing comes to mind) but having every weapon quite good at everything is actually (for me at least) a pretty big shift in the average player meta > for the worse.
Finally, DT is an obvious next iteration after VT2(And I hate DT, it’s bloody awful and too instantly punishing). They have learned much at Fatshark, and will keep going I think. Bad news is they seem unable to transfer old lessons into new games. There was some awesome stuff in VT1 that got binned in VT2 that - at the time - was utterly baffling why they did it. It’s like 2 steps forward one step back… BUT…. that’s still one step forward I guess.
Darktide has way more friction outside the mission that Vermintide 2 does (UI, hub UX, load times, etc.), they regressed massively in that regard.
Both games also have the egregiously unfair “spawn a guy behind you to poke you for half your health”, which is slightly less serious in DT due to the toughness system, but a literal pain in the backside in VT2
The game is a fine wine, keep drinking even if you dont like the taste, it will grow on you. As far as some feedback see below… Remember the devs absolutely love L4D and the game reflects that in most ways.
Specials. Staples of the Genre, nothing to really complain about here, its not like the trappers from Darktide, which have counter play (basically the same as Packmasters). Dodge the swipe then punish is usually the go-to move for all specials.
Skip the puzzles, if not, sorry the game forces you to use the one wrinkle on your giga brain.
Pretty epic. The pathing for vets have been tome/grim focused routes while maintaining efficiency since there is no sprint. Darktide moved away from these fixed positions since they caused “fixed” routes.
Mod support, i dont use mods, cant say. ill refer to the others who do.
not sure what this is about or the point to your general combat/gameplay gripe here.
They can, you just haven’t found it" yet.
Chaos Wastes. Its in the name, its a waste of time IMO.
Vermintide punishes players for mistakes, darktide is very forgiving. You unfortunately have learned combat and movement through Darktide (im assuming) and then move on to V2. Vermintide will not forgive you for being hit. Thats why i think its superior to Darktide. Although I agree Darktide is more fun. I, on the other hand, feel more accomplished when completing a V2 level which brings about its own type of enjoyment.
Can’t comment on Darktide, but this mechanic has a strong lore reason for existing in Vermintide. The main faction is Skaven who are sneaky, conniving, ambushing bastards, and sending a lone slave rat to bugger you in the bum would absolutely be a core tactic.
I also really enjoy it just as a gameplay mechanic. It means you need to pay attention, keep your head on a swivel, and listen for ambushers from behind. I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again, if you aren’t playing this game with surround sound headphones, you’re really missing out. The sound design is incredible and you can hear the footsteps of an approaching rat from behind (plus there’s the whole “whoosh” warning).
Yeah, it’s different than many other games that just spawn enemies from a fixed point and you face them down. I love that it’s different and more engaging / dynamic.
The spawn system is jank, that’s all. I’ve seen an entire horde of rats spawn from behind a tree because technically there is a point that is technically out of line of sight from the players, but since it operates with points and not model size, it’s an elephant behind a light post situation and it doesn’t look great. The single spawn behind you might be ok if all the surrounding systems are reliable, the backstab sound still has mixing issues and since it’s a sudden spawn, there are no spawn sounds like burrowing or landing or anything, which is actually unfair. It actually does spawn rats as you’re spinning around too, so you sometimes get this kind of situation:
Frankly the random spawns with no warning are cheap and knock you out of immersion..
I got real upsetti and didn’t respond to this post for a while. I’ve since calmed down. I’ve played a some more games since. Thanks for the good input everyone. I’ll respond and share my thoughts on the game since.
ZinStonehead:
I also completely understand your frustration with bomb rats. I had it the same way for a long time.
My solution is to simply play only proven maps. Don’t force yourself into something you don’t enjoy. I play Into the Nest only 90% of my playtime. There are no blightstormers, no places where bots get stuck and there are no beastmen, only skaven that are well balanced and fun to fight.
Yeah, I think quickplay may not be the way to go. No reason to do what you don’t like, you’re right. And, also yeah, screw bomber rats. They are overly difficult to counter, a special that requires possible build-alteration to handle, and overly punishing to fail to counter. I don’t think they’re okay, and won’t be playing maps with bombers. Just tune ‘em down, make ‘em easier to push, and stop sending 3-9 all at once when you really can’t push more than one at a time as far as I could tell. Darktide lets you push multiple dogs and exploders, and has a very forgiving timer to push. If you do get hit, it’s very punishing though. Which is fine.
CobaltNinja:
For puzzle mechanics, I should have said arena events. I am referring to things you need to perform mid-fight during many events. The last level of the verminous dreams campaign in particular, I still don’t understand where the sigils are written down for each page, and the mobs literally don’t stop spawning while you’re figuring it out. Many arena events that aren’t difficult puzzle-wise are tedious mechanically, like the 2nd level of the campaign where you have to stay inside the circle at the end, but it also has a pool of water which slows you down what feels like 60%, or the final level of the uh, I think the Return to Ubersreik campaign? Where the witch fights the other witch and you have to throw a barrel into the center 3 times, but the witch casts little homing missiles that’ll try to stop the barrel.. Oh my goodness, so frustrating. Not a fan.
Bomb rats are bad. Barrel boons are a bit underwhelming? Nurgle clouds just tick too quickly when they are first appearing, and hit really hard. Deed limits are limiting for no real reason - a sense of gravitas to the mission? Meh. Losing is enough of a punishment. Useless supplies/currency, same as Darktide once you’ve got whatcha need, and it didn’t take long at all to get close in VT2. No mod support really bothers me, I feel like the game could have a lot of additional life breathed into it with mods. Tomes/grims are meh - they’re more useful in VT2 than DT. I don’t like having to memorize secrets, but heck I didn’t even know they always spawned in the same locations. I don’t usually worry about them but it seems most players do, and the loot certainly is better, so I feel compelled to bring a curse resist item, just in case. Versus I never touched because I’m not really interested - I had fun with it in Left 4 Dead back in the day, but did VT2 really have the playerbase to support this mode by the time it was released? Questionable. Getting hit through walls/in place of teammate? Happens in DT too, and yes it’s incredibly unfair feeling. The spawns are better in VT2, overall, though. Good advice for dealing with bomb rats, I still think they’re poorly designed and overly difficult though. Guess that’s just a player opinion thing, though. I know you said you don’t like them either. Maybe some like having to spec to deal with them, like an extra challenge.
Alright. You’re actually the reason I decided to continue bothering with the game (aside from the core mechanics carrying themselves, of course!). I am able to dodge hookrats like 80% of the time now. The sound was always distinctive, but I literally didn’t know you could dodge them! Assassins I still think are difficult to push/dodge properly, but I see that it is doable. I can usually do it now, but sometimes in open areas it feels like they just teleport somewhere I didn’t see even though I can hear, and they get me. Life leech, I had noticed dodging seems to work, and yeah you confirmed it. I can handle these guys now most of the time. Storm sorcerers can be helpful, but I think their AOE is too large. More importantly, I feel it does too much damage after thrown if you do get forced into it. Sometimes they really do teleport so far away, you really can’t do much about it until they decide to mercifully teleport near again. Gas rats, like nurgle clouds, just cause too much immediate damage from the cloud IMO.
The specials stacking is rough, and that’s what I was meaning about the assassins, like sure if you have LoS on one you can usually deal with it, but when there’s 3 or 5 + a major horde and other elites/specials, well yeah it feels like they’re pinballing around and good luck dealing with it! Double hookrats, just as obnoxious as double or even triple trappers in DT. I honestly just assume there’s always 2 now, because that was such a frequent killer for me.
I see what you’re saying about weapons. VT2 definitely has a stronger “team” feeling to it. Balance in DT isn’t so great, either. Lately, it’s been getting better and more frequent balance adjustments. I hope they continue, they’ve said that is their plan going forward. Still, in DT you pretty much don’t take weapons that can’t deal with armored enemies, because there are so many. There’s not as many in VT2, which makes horde-oriented weapons better. I love dual swords on Sister of the Thorn, but if she didn’t apply bleeds to poisoned enemies through talents, I don’t think I’d be able to stomach the complete lack of damage towards armored. Sword and Dagger is a better balance, but my goodness I LOVE the horde clear of dual swords. Guess I just gotta accept that. It’s not the worst thing. Class/talents and ranged are there to make up for it. I generally use the staff to just disable/float chaos warriors/specials/thin out elites and hope someone on my team is geared for it - otherwise, just whack ‘em and bleed ‘em to death seems more effective than using the dual swords’ armored-piercing attacks.
Agreed entirely.
Yeah. I was able to quickly understand that you have to ACTUALLY BLOCK sometimes, or you’re gonna have a bad time. The enemies will chase your butt down. Pushing and dodging is just as critical, but in DT that can be (mostly) enough. VT2, well there’s a reason block cost reduction is generally valued as a stat on most meta builds I’ve seen. I was getting wrecked even on Veteran occassionally when I first was getting into it, and that really surprised me with my time from DT. I pretty much just play Legend now - I don’t think I’ll ever feel the need to go into Cata more than every once in a while, but I can’t imagine stepping down from Auric (old Damnation/Auric Damnation) in DT. The accomplishment from completing a mission in VT2 is higher, I agree.
Overall yeah. I don’t want them to be the same either. Just some things I had a hard time grasping. I guess the DT devs also wanted some changes - like bombers becoming pox-bursters, and assassins into dogs, but so much more forgiving in their counterplay, while equal in punishment if you fail to do so. Their main threat comes when dealing with other enemies now in DT. Combat does feel super rewarding when you learn to block/dodge/push appropriately. I do like it.
Yeah. Both games “suffer” from it. It can be frustrating to deal with an entire patrol + horde + specials and additional elites, but then get whacked twice by some little slave skavens and you’re at half health - after the battle is over. I almost feel safer taking some damage early on so I can build up my THP reserves. This issue happens in DT too.
so many of your complaints come down to personal preferences, simply not liking the game for what it is.
