Returning to Vermintide from Darktide has given me a new appreciation for the design choices in Darktide, especially when it comes to specials. The specials in Vermintide 2 just don’t hold up in comparison. They’re not enjoyable to interact with, whether it’s fighting or killing them. Specifically, two of the pinning specials have a tendency to teleport, and one can’t be staggered at all.
In a game that is heavily focused on melee combat, where your movement is often hindered by hordes, these interactions are more frustrating than engaging. I just want to enjoy fighting rats in a medieval setting without these annoying mechanics.
Darktide specials have their own issues, like their audio not playing correctly, but most of these problems are due to bugs rather than design flaws. The main reason why I praise them is how fair they feel. Pox Hounds announce their arrival with a howl, giving you a chance to hear them coming. If you’re able to dodge or shove in time, they won’t magically disappear and attack you from behind soon after.
Trappers are probably the most hated special for various reasons, but the nice thing about them is that they can be staggered if you’re fast enough before their net fires. If they do fire and you manage to dodge their net, they run off to reload, giving the team a few seconds of respite or the opportunity to pick them off as they retreat. This is not the case for a Leech, who will just teleport away only to return soon after, right behind you.
The underlying point here is that interactions with specials in Darktide feel more “fair.” When they get you, you’re not usually frustrated thinking, “BY THE EMPEROR, THAT’S UNFAIR” (with the exception of bugged encounters, like audio not working). This is because the way they interact with the player isn’t designed to be annoying or frustrating, and that’s why Darktide specials get a strong A from me, while Vermintide specials get a C.
I’d like to fully see an end to some of the one shots in the game. Literally having a convo with my friend about it rn. :')
The 1shot overheads through block in Darktide are bad though (from a v2 perspective).
I think their sound is bugged atm too.
Vs Gutter Runners, the tactic is to stack, which is good.
Gas you spread or move into a different spot.
Gunner you avoid LoS.
Stormer, counter snipe/move or tanky player jumps in.
Leech is easier to deal with than Packmaster, but the noclipping is so dumb.
Packmaster, everyone just tries to avoid being at the front, because you can’t see them coming half the time. This is in density btw. It’s why stuns are so needed.
Actually I agree.
Stormers cast from distances and places they shouldn’t even see the heroes.
Pack masters cannot be spotted in hordes and their sound is too quiet.
Assassins always attacking from the back, it doesn’t even worth the try to dodge or push.
However, leeches are okay. Their sound is easy to hear, therefore easy to dodge, and we exactly know where to find them.
So long as I see the runner I can most of the time avoid them, same with packmasters. Thru a horde with too much noise is different, that density is a killer.
The others dont seem to trouble me much except in very occasional situations. Had a run on Parting of Waves recently ended, mostly by a blightstormer. Was tho, the aoe usually never moves faster than you can, this one just zipped across to me.
The leech has a really distinct sound and I usually dodge it without even looking as the 3D sound for them is perfect even without headphones. Idk what they did but the clarity on a leech is great even in a horde.
Cant say the same for packmasters and runners. If I see them I have a good chance unless the world is dense with chaos + rat
Leaches are by far the easiest special there is. I can’t remember dying to them or being grabbed at all, not only by myself, but by my teammates as well. If someone gets grabbed by the leach,
Odds are he is new, that’s just my observation.
Every special has some kind of sound, indicating where they are, and a clear delay animation before they attack (besides pack master). I personally had much better experience detecting special by sound in V2 than in DT, amongst all the cacophony of other sounds.
I couldn’t really figure out, is it because I just got used to VT2 so much, or does DT just have a worse sound picture.
And as others said: Blight stormers casting out of LOS is pretty much the biggest problem with special in VT2.
Agreed. Maulers overhead’s should be blockable and I never understood why an Ogyrn player can’t block an overhead from a regular human (mauler) or another Ogyrn, seems silly in all honesty.
The sounds don’t play on there a lot of the time. My friend was showing me with the mod that shows spawns, and there’s straight up no sounds for them and wooshes too (when attacked from behind)
When it comes to specials. I really like them, i had some good nice runs. The only thing as @ZinStonehead mentioned is that blights are casting from miles away or even through walls. Every other special is totally fine.
I agree with Blight Stormers, the teleporting fatties seems to waltz out of LoS, and that’s IF anyone has the range to pop them.
In Darktide, the sniper can be quite annoying as Ogryn. Its unpopular but I find snipers more of a pesk than trappers or dogs.
I agree, there is nothing the puts a bigger smile on my face than a squeeling rat being taunted by a dwarf. I really enjoy seeing ragdoll rats. Their humor also reminds me of Grunts in Halo. Something about the dimwitted approach and frightened nature, while also struggling with the confidence to attack you, is such a fascinating dynamic.
I would say that DT Chaos specials may outshine V2 Chaos Specials, but they still (both) lack personality.
I’ve posted before on the personality conversation, but I think Darktide can take a huge leap if they have more personable enemies. But in 40k that’s simply Heresy! Suffer not the Heretic to live! Purge the Xenos!
massive L take. you are comparing a game designed to be easy and a game designed to be hard and saying, this one is too hard. you dont get a massive 360 AOE push that extends 5 feet in all directions in verm. you cant stagger everything all the time. you cant easily do everything yourself w/o a lil skill or playtime. you are confusing a low skill floor game like darktide with a much higher skill floor game
point im making is thats what makes vermintide 2 good. its not a cakewalk
The only bullcrap part about vermintides specials are the bugs. Yeah gutter runner getting on the fence and instantly bouncing at the speed of light is the classic or stormers having those cool spots where they can cast without you being able to shoot back (looking at you enchanters lair glass windows).
It was honestly quite the same deal with darktides specials for a long time, or did we already forget how buggy dogs were for a long time and still sometimes are?
I’m not saying the specials in Vermintide are hard, that’s not my point. My focus is on the improvement in special designs from Vermintide 2 to Darktide. The way specials interact with players in Darktide offers a more enjoyable experience, whereas in Vermintide 2, the specials often feel more like interruptions that disrupt the flow of the game, making them more annoying rather than challenging.
Interesting topic, i too see some specials not fully fitting the melee theme of Vermintide 2, but they can be made more interactive and fun, imo.
They add a lot of depth to tactics and positioning, but if you’re good enough, shooting them becomes a chore most of the time, something that interrupts the fun melee loop.
Ranged weapons is the most prominent way to kill specials, and depending on your choice of weapon or career, you can have varying experience, easy or hard, fun or frustrating. And Vermintide 2 have mostly simple ranged weapons & combat, not enough depth, with some exceptions.
Isn’t it due to Darktide being more ranged focused game, the special designs feel better for you (that have lots of similarities). Vermintide itself took a lot of inspiration from L4D specials, which was even more ranged focused game than DT.
I also don’t like how most optimal choice for pub games is always bringing a ranged weapon suited best for special sniping, because melee or horde clear guns are too restrictive. In other words, melee approach or certain ranged weapons - sometimes feel like you bring a knife to a gunfight (with Vermintide’s specials).
Hmm i am bit irritated you can handle litterally all specials with melee only, except blightstormers if they dont port to you. And the dodges are not really hard to learn.
So i dont see how it interrupts the melee focussed gameplay. Especially as slayer you have an easy time against them due to your mobility. But also GK can onehit them all.
In the clip i have posted the GK has over 100 special kills and was pretty close to my 130 kills als waystaylker. Sure it isnt a that open map, but as i said on a open map only blightstormer and maybe gasrats would be a problem for melee only careers.
That could very well be the case. All the specials in Left 4 Dead were designed to fit the flow of a ranged-focused game. You’re expected to take them out with ranged attacks, and as long as you have line of sight on your team, you can shoot specials off them. They only become truly dangerous if the team is out of ammo. Yet, even in those circumstances the Jockey can be shoved if you’re quick enough. However, this isn’t true for the Hook Rat. As you mentioned, not bringing a ranged weapon to snipe specials feels like bringing a knife to a gunfight.
Generally, that’s true, especially if you pick a melee weapon to kill them quickly. However, if you’re playing as a Grail Knight without his shield or a Warrior Priest of Sigmar, lacking a ranged weapon becomes a real problem. For instance, Flamerats can’t be killed with melee; they’ll just push you into a corner and cook you. The same goes for Ratling Gunners. Leeches can spawn out of range and disappear before you can hit them, and Blightstormers? Good luck with those. Hook Rats aren’t too bad on their own, but in a dense horde where you can’t shove them and have no maneuverability to dodge? You’re done for. Assassin Rats are particularly troublesome, often flying at you without warning from out of nowhere.
My point is that while you can dispatch all Vermintide 2 specials with melee, it’s not the optimal way to do it. It’s best to have a strong ranged weapon on hand to deal with them effectively. Even in the video you posted, you’re fulfilling that role by playing as the elf, using the Hagbane Bow or your ultimate to kill the majority of the specials.
I suppose the crux of the issue is that the developers made a mistake by modeling the specials too closely after Left 4 Dead. Vermintide 2 is a different kind of game and requires a different approach to enemy design.
For me it’s more that Disablers can noclip, have no sound or spawn on/behind you.
If a Darktide charger runs through 15 Ogryns and a Boss and slams me a couple of times, idc.
If a Packmaster does the same, I’m dead, unless I have a stun.
If noclipping, spawns and sounds was fixed I wouldn’t advocate for removal of one shots, but they’re not and probably won’t be.
The entire point of how disablers work is that they’re avoidable, and not being able to see them attacking is the only way you can tell, due to sound not working.
You even get packmasters stacked on top of each other noclipping through Elite density, without unique sounds/visuals. With 2Hers this is a bigger problem, as you have less dodge range, less dodge count, and can only RNG dodge so much before you’re randomly dead on the floor.
tho, the aoe usually never moves faster than you can, this one just zipped across to me.