I think we are kinda in an agreement when we say the main issue is abusing rending and crits to demolish crushers/maulers while being really safe
This is why I believe uncanny/precog need to be nerfed
Riposte also needs to be nerfed by 5% at least
And as a pre emptive measure, remove Agile from Duelling Sword to make sure people don’t instantly jump on it and become untouchable after the other blessings would be nerfed (Note: I would really like to see Agile on slower weapons, but on DS it can be a problem)
Nerf the special stagger attack to not stagger crushers while they’re charging an overhead (or not stagger crushers at all)
Lastly as a QoL just buff the damage from the Duelling Sword heavies that aren’t the thrust (the strikedown heavies basically, so it would be a buff to Mk2 and Mk5)
Edit: Yes, uncanny precog and Riposte also needs nerfs on the Combat Blades, but not really any other change IMO
Please do. Keep it pinned so everyone visiting the forums can see it and contribute. It should be moderated properly though, given the shtflinging balance discussion invites. Especially with people fearing for their crutches…
Like I said, the argument is over (by my decree). I removed the whole thing and all replies to it and I will start handing out timeouts to people who derail this thread again.
I’d been meaning to come back to this but work’s been busy; mobility is a major balance factor.
I’ve had a thing against the combat knife since day one (too safe, too easy for the damage it does on Zealot). @Reginald 's video at the top of the thread made me extremely curious, therefore I cribbed his homework and spent a little time checking things in game. Please note: This was a quick check, not thorough, I didn’t check every mark and didn’t go digging in game files beyond what was already in that vid - but I doubt mobility profile varies by weapon mark.
There are ?6? mobility profiles for weapons in the game; this is Sprint Speed Modifier:
Profile Name
Actual +Sprint 60-80%
In-Game Tooltip Mobility
Game File
“Ninja1”
0.80-0.89
0.53-0.97
0.50-1.00
“Assault”
0.40-0.60
-0.19-0.79
-0.25-0.85
“Default”
0.09-0.27
-0.45-0.45
-0.50-0.50
?Heavy?
0.0
n/a
?
“Support”
-0.13-0.02
-0.56-0.16
-0.6-0.2
?Slow?
-0.20
n/a
?
Deets (Sorry, didn’t do Ogryn, he’s getting patched):
Ninja1: The broken-strong group; Combat Knife, Dueling Sword, Heavy Las Pistol
Assault: Seems to be the ‘fast ranged’ group: Bolt Pistol, Revolver, Dbarrel Shottie, Shredder Pistol, ReconLas
Default: Catch all. Devil Claw, Chain Weaps, Combat+Tac Axes, Shock Maul, Force Swords, Combat Shovel, Power Sword | Braced/Vigilant/Infantry Auto, Infantry Laz, Combat Shotties, Boltgun
?Heavy?: No mobility stat. Heavy Sword, Force Greatsword, ???Hellbore Lasgun??? (Literally has no sprint speed modifier unlike every other weapon)
?Relic?: Relic Blade, Flamer.
?Slow?: No mobility stat. Thunder Hammer, Crusher, Force Staves, Plasma Gun
Notes
The first column is the one that ‘matters’ - it’s the actual modifier to sprint speed prior to talents/etc, as I understand it, and is easily verified by inspecting a weapon in game.
The step-changes between the first three profiles are MASSIVE. Row 1&2 are completely different worlds.
In my experience, the game starts to get much more trivial in the ~0.55+ range where mobility is concerned.
Originally I tried doing this on a talent-less Vet then realized talents etc don’t impact stats displayed at all. Which is a pity as it’d be nice to understand the interactions.
So, this is all tangential to the Dueling Sword issue - mobility is a major factor in survivability. This thread inspired me to roll up and test a 60% collateral bolt pistol instead of my 60% mobility one and the step change is massive (+.4 vs +.6 sprint speed is HUGE). Try it yourself.
So, the point of this is, along with my general gripe about the Dueling Sword being too survivable: I have the same issue with the Combat Blade, and wish they’d take a HARD look at bringing down the top-2 categories there.
Let’s give the dueling sword a ‘sharpness’ cooldown. Fully sharp it performs as is… as it’s used it becomes less and less effective until you have to stop, take out your whetstone, and give it a good old sharpening. /s (sort of )
Devs will have to rebalance enemy spawns too since currently their method seems to be “more elites”, which is what got us to the point of anything that scales off elite kills that doesn’t have an internal cooldown being nuts. Disparate and arbitary internal cooldowns are also not great as 9 times out of 10 it makes the ability useless when it goes from >90% uptime to <10% uptime.
Aren’t you glad that “Fatshark is open to a conversation about the duelist sword”?
That is truly amazing.
I am relieved to know they are finally acknowledging the idea of potentially starting a discussion to observe the probability of a referendum to perhaps balance a weapon.
Perhaps, dare I say, perhaps they will make a spring announcement for the teaser of a summer balance patchnote including the DS.
Pragmatism and efficiency are too rare in this world.
How is this shocking to anyone? The knife is just as good as the dueling if not better and ita been an S tier meta weapon since the game launched. People keep talking about the dueling sword as if the knife hasnt been untouched for ages now. If theyre going to nerf the dueling sword then nerf the knife as well.
Right, but emphasis on effectively. To @zaygr’s point which I’ve also made, it doesn’t feel effective or brainy when it’s ">90% uptime to <10% ", feast or famine.
Any look at all would have been appreciated months ago.
And don’t get me wrong, I’m a HUGH fan of high-mobility weapons (I like going fast), but I would prefer if such builds required more investment (Stacking mobility talents, high mobility stat/weapon, and maybe event requiring somekind of movement speed weapon perk or blessing before you hit the silly levels) and greater loss of survivability in other departments (Going full mobile should require giving up other benefits, like higher toughness/DR/damage).
For example, I’d be fine if they added fist weapons that were in the ninja category, but damage-wise were mid, instead focused around staggering and combo’ing enemies with a flurry of blows in a hit-and-run fashion. With blessings rewarding repeated strikes, greedy combos and teamplay to help balance out the innate selfishness of high-speed shenanigans. Folks would hate them because they wouldn’t be meta, but I’d love them because of an incessant need for speed. (Also, no one’s complaining about the heavy las last I checked so I think there’s room for some fast weapons)
It actually bothers me that so many high-mobility weapons are also meta-picks for damage output. I remember the good ol’ days when high mobility was considered a noob trap. Ah, how the tide has turned.
Back on track, I’d accept nerfing ninja at least down to the .7X’s and kicking DS down to assault. Maybe adjusting some damage values on knife to keep it in Ninja (for the thematic value) or moving it to assault too. Then lowering assault to .30-.5X. I think this would at least be a modest first step and bring these ranges closer together. Balancing includes a lot of factors so I don’t know if the mobility is the be-all-end-all here. They can always buff it back up if it turns out the silent masses love going fast more than a balanced combat experience.
I think the worst part is all the bad habits you get when you use this thing for too long. You can’t play normally or progress with other weapons anymore. Combo management, caution, combat with heavy armor… It’s almost like unlearning the game. I burned mine in the purifying flames.
