I don’t remember being able to one shot crushers and maulers repeatedly with a knife. Let’s also not forget horde clear and reach.
The special action for DS4 compounds the problem.
I don’t think everyone who is using DS4 will switch to knife if DS is nerfed. There’s definitely arguments to be made against the knife, but they’re not the same.
Such is the nature of public match making.
With such mindset. I can see people opting for Knife, not based on damage but own survival even at detriment of the team. As you can bypass enemies to the door, don’t have to kill them all.
People assume most players would then look into other weapons, learn movesets, play as a team but they will gravitate to path of least resistance, easy moveset, easy to evade, easy to run. Most people are not hardcore, they want simple jump in and play.
The knife’s real special ability is infinite stamina heavy swing to continually propel you forward.
Trying to avoid generalising with the word selfish play, but with the way ammo/meds scooped up then that mentality leads to weapon choice as well to ensure their needs go first over team effectiveness.
Not for all because not generalising - But going to see a lot more knife runners than usual if say DS was to become horde effective only. Even if knife completely more sucked, that mobility is least risk to themselves first. Of course there will be portion that alternatively will go to combat axe, relic etc for single target damage replacements.
@FatsharkStrawHat can we please have that conversation? 5 days and this thread has 1k views, 565 likes, and 182 comments by 53 different users. It’s clearly something everybody really cares about!
DS ruins a lot of fun by being so out of whack compared to everything else. Very powerful weapons are fine (see relic blade) as long as they come with tradeoffs, which the dueling sword does not. The balance changes detailed so far are very welcome but (at least IMO) it would make sense to address the “outliers” first at both ends of the spectrum.
Dueling sword is a huge balance outlier. There are others at the other end of the spectrum too for example tactical axe is incredibly weak. Tactical axe and other underperforming weapons (infantry lasguns, double shotgun, heavy swords, devils claw, vigilant autoguns) don’t ruin the fun in the same way as the dueling sword does but their lack of viability really dampens the variety of heretic purging fun we can have.
Yeah, and again, easily removable to not be a thing anymore (sans stam).
I prefer that to the ones that for some reason refuse to heal and no I’m not talking about martyrdom zealots.
I think a minor nerf to Flak and unyielding, and a huge nerf to carapace will suffice, let it delete all unarmored enemies, in fact, it should just bounce off carapace.
Do what? The knife and dueling sword are obviously different weapons but the knife is just as broken mobility wise as the dueling sword and the only reason so many people play dueling sword is ease of use. The combat blades are still easily some of the best melee weapons in the entire game if not for mobility alone. Also why wouldnt people switch to knife if dueling sword gets nerfed because thats exactly what they would do and its what everyone was using before the dueling sword was given to vet and zealot. Also you still see tons of people using combat blades because some people prefer the knife. What im saying is people are ranting and raving about a weapon that people havent even been using that long but the knife has been a meta S tier weapon for 2 years now and it hasnt been touched either.
There are videos out there on youtube of someone in the psykanium using both dueling sword and combat blade against every enemy in the game and karnak twins and every other boss at the same time and destroying everything. All im saying is if theyre going to nerf the dueling sword then nerf combat blades as well cuz combat blades have been broken for years at this point. Every solo run you will ever see consists of someone running combat blade so idk why more people dont talk about it needing nerfed. The combat blade allows one to completely ignore every enemy in the game and infinitely kite hordes forever. Not once did I say dueling sword and knife are the same im referring to the fact that they are both S tier weapons with game breaking mobility and ones been used for a few months while the other has been used since the game came out which is a massive difference.
Yeah I’m gonna agree, DS needs its damage nerfed, both knife and DS need their mobility nuked from orbit.
Genuinely curious how many bans have been handed out because of this thread.
Crucis hammer enjoyer here, please move some of the power from Dueling Sword to Crucis so I can actually mob without being the world’s crappiest Wipeout obstacle. Hell, the Crusher does a better job of mobbing than the Crucis.
Also it really hurts the lore-accurate thunderhammer image when a Warp-addled twig of a freak and the leftover scraps of an Imperial regiment can stab four Ogryn Crusher heads off each in the time it takes for me to hit one.
Just checking in, once a week.
Is FS still open to discuss?
It’s a critical information I need to verify.
I am really unsure about this.
Never seen a veteran doing massive damages with a combat knife… Seen a lot of times zealot using combat blade and being just a flying bee for the enemies…
BUT, I have seen lot of times shroudfield builds recording massive damages output… not as high as a psyker can do, but still pretty high.
But unless I missed something, I don’t see others builds that do such damage output with the combat blade… leading me to think that this is not the weapon the problem but talents (shroudfield + the 2 CDR nodes)
It’d be considered meta, like Thermaal said, because of the bonkers mobility.
People we gotta agree here okay? Sometimes a weapon is chosen not because it hits hardest, but because its harder to die with it equipped.
You’re talking about one aspect of the knife. It’s mobility. I agree to a certain extent, but we’re not just talking about mobility when it comes to DS.
It’s not because of mobility that DS can one shot three crushers in a row.
Well considering that you can get mobility and DPS with the DS, DS is largely above the combat blade.
However, the fact you can get pretty high DPS with shroudfield show that this ability is really very strong.
But I don’t think that Mobility > DPS. In fact, if you are unable to kill anything, no matter how fast you move, you will end on floor…
I would say that Relic Blade is FAR above the combat blade… And DS is not even playing in the same world.
Tbh, I would like that DS still keeps its ability to deal with single threats and that it sucks totally against masses.
But I am fine if they go with what is the most asked, nerfing carapace damages.
Cause actually, DS has everything… mobility, horde control and single threat removal. That’s too much, especially when you consider that the weapon is efficient against all categories including carapace.
Granted i haven’t played in 3 months nor been on here much, but unless something has drastically changed it’s always been about the mobility and the survivability that grants first and foremost on either knife or DS, and i think both should be included in any discussion of this.
That DS now can also one-tap crushers under optimal conditions or even two-tap with little investment outside the right blessings while having the ability to zoom away at over sprint speed when/if you get overwhelmed?
Never really seemed like there was much to debate even back in the knife zealot days, let alone now with the DS.
That being said, my low effort take would be nerf the mobility but keep the damage output, the damage on either isn’t (imo) that much of a problem if you can’t also run away faster than most mobs at the slightest hint of danger with zero stamina cost.
A bit more effort would be to make the lunges/“movement tech” drain significant stamina, or at more dev effort, apply a ticking and stacking stamina penalty if you use things like the knife heavy/DS light slide (or any slide lunge/attack combo) repeatedly within a large trigger window.
Lets you keep using those tools as a gap closer/snap back to target on dodge as “intended”, but if you spam them, let’s say 3 times within 10-15 seconds, you’ll tank your stamina for a decent duration, just straight to fatigued state and you lose the lunge movement effect for a similar duration.
I think it’s good that weapons have the kind of flavor and options that knives and DS grant (or momentum slides in general), but it’s silly when they convey free and massive bonuses over almost all other weapons that directly relate to survivability and have top tier damage, but also lets you essentially bypass stamina limitations at the same time as making you faster than most enemies or even chain faster than sprint speed.
Anyway, one take amongst many.
True however…
This game is not about mobility… this about how fast you can deal with threats.
And if you have mobility and no DPS, you die. At contrary if you have high DPS you can deal with threats. The best is to find the right setup between mobility, attack speed and DPS and adapt your combat style.
And here the problem is that DS has everything… Combat blade has mobility but cannot one “shot” like the DS can do (but shroudfield can make the weapon very good…)
I mean, with Vet when using Knife I normally get good one shots on elites like gunner and on specials (Havoc 40) thanks to Precision Strikes, Uncanny Strikes and the talent that gives you 15% more dmg against elites
Damage wise is not that different from Duelling Sword, I think people really underestimate how good the stagger on demand against everything is on the DS, especially at charging Reapers and stopping their barrage
I love careening around the map with a knife. But the weapon doesn’t need to be nearly effective as it is against both armor and hordes. It’s not as bad as DS, but its still got the great mobility/defense, very good anti-armor, and good-enough anti-horde all going for it.
I say, nuke the damage and/or reach, and leave the knife to players who deserve it: Those who don’t really care about DPS, but have the zoomies in their soul.