Fatshark for the love of Sigmar assemble some kind of community balance council because you have no clue wtf your doing

Not sure I follow. It’s an issue now, so they aren’t able to fix it? Stuff takes time, coding is hard…if FS could snap their fingers and make all the fixes they obviously would have done it already.

And deadlines are necessary for projects (even if you don’t have a publisher or client banging down your door). Without deadlines, things don’t get done at all. I don’t know where the quote is from, but I think it rings true that “a piece of software isn’t done until you quit working on it.” If FS delivers everything they promised (mods, dedicated servers, keep customization, etc.) 6 months after I’ve started enjoying the game on a daily basis I’ll personally consider that a big win. I know everyone doesn’t feel that way, and I get the frustration. I don’t get the stream of hate and accusations like “they’re lying liars!”

I’ll just put this here for people that haven’t seen it yet as well

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Balance changes are small variables that take up no space. I don’t see why they couldn’t set a different behaviors for weapons/traits/skills and talents specifically for Legend and leave the lower tiers…easier. It’s been done for Guild Wars 2 PvP and PvE, same thing goes for several other multiplayer competitive games where high tier ranked/pro play has different behaviors,interactions and numbers to accommodate for player skill and knowledge.

Lot of work? It’s not a matter of coding anything,it’s just a matter of having the slightest idea on how to balance and then changing the numbers. Community suggestions could greatly help with such tweaks,so they wouldn’t have to balance from scratch with no information.

For now the formula for legend is: more damage,more health,more enemies - same weapons,same traits, with max PL not taken into consideration at all.

Longevity = end game content.
Legend = end game content.
end game content = max stats
max stats = appropriate balancing based on them

it’s either balancing to 600PL or 0 PL. Balancing to 0 PL is meaningless,because even the least skilled players will stomp through recruit as soon as they catch up on some basic things, like which specials are disablers,which enemies hit harder and how the levels and events on said levels progress.

Besides, people who stay on recruit/vet sure as hell won’t bother with the game for a long time.

Why should people looking for a FAIR challenge where they can use the entire broad arsenal at their disposal be punished with nonsensical “balancing” decisions based on the opinions and skill of the people least invested in the game?

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I honestly don’t get the analogy here. Making weapons viable on the hardest difficulty is supposed to f*ck over the middle man in…what way?
Because the weapon may be harder to use or different to use? Yeah, might turn some people off, but if every weapon is at least usable they might think “hey let’s try this instead…” and like another playstyle.

I really don’t see it quite as drastically, mainly because it’s PvE. And how opponents and mechanics on LEGEND are supposed to destroy casual players on CHAMPION or VETERAN, is just beyond me.

I’m not saying “give all balancing matter into player’s hands”, not at all. But weapon balancing might be ONE point where FS may want to listen to players who have tested these weapons in different situations on different characters and different careers.
And imo, if a weapon is viable on Legend, it’ll be more than playable for the average joe if he puts some effort into it.

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I don’t bandwaggon on calling them names or incompetent and whatnot, coding may be hard, but that’s their job. I can’t go to my clients either and tell them “oh, knowing the law is hard, I am sorry I can not deliver what I promised right now, I will get there in maybe half a year.” If that is my business practice and work ethics, I will be out of business more sooner than later and rightfully so. I am perfectly willing to cut them some slack for being a rather small team (though deadlines usually come from a publisher) and everything. But I am certainly not giving them any clemency for absolutely amateur mistakes that have nothing, I repeat NOTHING to do with coding being hard. Things like the live version initially being the “wrong” build, the latest patch again being the result of some internal communication problems and their obvious inability to get certain bugs out of the game after trying and trying and trying and always saying “oh, now it should be gone”. I see FS more as a studio of artists. The artstyle of the game is absolutely brilliant and it lucks stunning, it is spot on Warhammer. But there seem to be people that know their game’s code better than they do (coughcoughIamLupocoughcough) that have proven they can do better than they could and, if you’d were to trust certain sources, already have mods ready to go.

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I hear ya. Again, can only speak for myself, but I’m glad the game is out now in the state it is. It’s fun, it’s expansive, and me and my buds have sunk hundreds of hours into it.

For the record, mods are just about ready to go live, the workshop is accessible (if you jump thru some hoops), and as of today there are a dozen or so mods available and working. Robin (dev) has been working tireslessly hand-in-hand with VT1 modders. It’s just another example of the unseen work that FS is busting ass on to get out huge features to us as soon as possible.

And, if it wasn’t clear that FS are the “right kind of dev,” they’re also bringing official mod support and tools to VT1. I think that says everything.

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It may prove that they put alot of effort into it, which is a good thing. Effort doesn’t necessarily equal results, though. I do enjoy the game, don’t get me wrong, that’s the reason why I am still here. When praise is due, I praise. When it’s not, I call it like I see it. And when I see amateurish and easily avoidable mistakes being repeated over and over again, I definitely lose trust, no matter how much effort ist put in. That’s my whole point.

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I think we’re mostly talking past each other at this point, but I get your frustration. I reckon I’m more in the “move fast and break things” camp, at least when it comes to video game development. In the end, this isn’t as high stakes as mission critical systems development or bird law or whatever. If some bugs come thru, a few runs through Halescourge are ruined, and some people get peeved a bit…it’s not the end of the world.

I think it’s fair to wish for more stable early-development patches. And it’s totally healthy to point out bugs or vent about irritating issues. But the constant crapping on FS – calling them liars, incompetent, amateurs, etc – just rubs me the wrong way…especially when I know most of the people doing it have clocked literally hundreds of hours in game.

It’s a personal opinion, I know not everyone agrees, I don’t intend to offend anyone with it, and I’ll continue to post it from time to time. This is a forum, and not a support ticket system, after all.

And the bird law thing was a joke. I hope you both know the reference and don’t take offense. :wink:

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There are too many different opinions of what the balance should be for a community council to do any good. All that will happen is the blame will be shifted to them instead of the devs by the squeaky wheels.

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It’s easy to call the programmers incompetent but without being on the inside and knowing the particulars of the studio’s workflows and hierarchy there is no way to accurately point the finger and pass judgements.

Maybe one of the the reasons that programmers are having a bit of a hard time fixing things is that too many engineering design choices were made in favour of serving the art department. How much time have the programmers spent working on tools for that particular aspect?

I don’t know how large the studio is but remember, this game is still much more complex than most indie games. Just building out the systems to get these visuals working together is a difficult task.

At first glance it seems like VT2 is a story of a studio having great asset guys and weaker game designers and programmers. It’s not as simple as that. Software Engineering remains arguably the most difficult part of any videogame, and its breadth is more than just the PE that you run at the end.

One thing I can say for the game is that the game design has been a bit weak. The more I look at it though the more I think that it was a case of them hitting the edge of the cliff and were forced to ship. It starts to make sense when you look at it like that. Problem is, you start overhauling game design and you need to start overhauling code. Not simple. It’s up to the game designers to get stuff right without massive rebuilds they just can’t do.

I’m glad they’ve shut off the valve on the elf’s crap train for the most part. I liked Kerillian a lot in the first game but this game has turned that around. It was dumb to have the classes talking smack at each other all the time when some classes were legitimately weaker than others, and walking around like rockstars in their sequel when much of the game was borked.

Yeah the game’s not perfect. It’s getting better. I’d take an independent effort that starts off a little rough around the edges over yet another AAA swindle that allows itself to be a good game only when it damn well pleases. Certainly don’t need just that latter kind.

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The problem that I see is that Vermintide 2 in Legend is an excellent game to shoot rats. And it’s not because shooting is OP, it’s simply that the MELEE combat is totally USELESS.

I’ve run races with pyromancer, Ironbreaker, waystalker, ranger veteran, with less than 20 melee deaths, it’s ridiculous. This is supposed to be a melee game, and Fatshark nerfs the melee weapons hahahahaha Somebody explain it to me.

To kill a boss with melee weapons is ridiculously annoying, but if your team has ranged DPS, the boss dies in a minute, it’s absurd.
It is also absurd that a shield and a hand weapon are WORSE to fight melee combat than a single weapon.
What should be a valuable advantage (to have a shield to block powerful attacks) becomes a disadvantage so boring to play that in legend you will not see anyone with a shield, it’s ridiculous.

Congratulations for doing such a good SHOOTER Fatshark.

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That’s exactly why VT has difficulty levels. And that’s exactly why there needs to be one more difficulty for the most hardcore players.

As a customer I don’t and shouldn’t be caring about such stuff, just like I don’t care about any restaurant internals when I go there - all I care about is service and food quality.

Same goes for FS: I don’t hate them, I don’t love them - I don’t care about them. I care about the game and the fellow players, and I think this is the most right and most healthy approach to the situation.

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I don’t think they even need to do that. Damage, stagger, cleave values and such, as well number of enemies, is pretty enough to balance different difficulties. The most they need to do is change Boss behaviors on lower difficulties. As for talents and perks, if they’re good on Legend, they’re gonna be as good on lower tiers. If some of them require skill, well, there is 15 careers in total, 75 talents, 54 weapons and dozens of trait. Just pick whatever works for you.

That’s the most hard work to do actually. Millions of people know how to code, few are able to create something, and that’s exactly because of this reason - being creative is hard. And balancing is just one form of creative work.

Idk. I’ve seen a lot of good ideas from people here at the forum, but I’ve seen a lot of bizarre ones. Yes, community can have great ideas, but someone should sort them out from the bad ones, and community also needs to be worked with. So that’s not that easy, and so far I haven’t seen FS doing any of that.

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maybe I worded it wrong. It’s something you have to work on carefully, but it’s not having to spend time on “manual labor” such as writing code, making models, recording/adding sounds etc.

I’m still salty that there are “duplicates” between careers, but I won’t complain about that as it’s only a matter of preference I guess.

yeah,I just said if they would, because they could and they can but don’t.

Here is my strongest argument against community council. And here is another one.

(My side doesn’t matter, only the discussion itself.)

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Objection! Here-say! Y’see, thats lawyer talk.

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From what I understand the executioner nerf was a direct result of changing a variable on the glaive (because they used the same weapon profile), in this case the balance DID need some coding.

I believe a council of 13 (!) players to discuss balance would get a fire hose full of green dust and squirt it over everyone. Everywhere. Like it or not. Possibly not a bad thing.

The people who designed the game are getting caught out by balance ballsups and they know the game far more intimately than anyone else. They understand that tweaking something here might wreck something there and the complexity is possibly so mind numbingly complex some randoms that get plucked from the internet are going to need a month jsut to get on board with the whole shizang.

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I detailed all of mine as well, and yes, the incompetence level regarding this issue is pretty extreme…

I’ve left the game at this point.

But I would come back if this issue was resolved. So I keep checking to see if any progress has been made.

Once I see progress I will return. Until then no.

Why not join the Fatshark Discord https://discord.gg/K6gyMpu