Sounds reasonable and would be a step into the right direction. Alternative nerf may be a higher CD.
In case of MFB I wouldnt say it needs a nerf, as long as griffonfoot, minigun and Siennas new staff dont get one.
P.S.:Kruber needs a buff to get on par with the others.
No. Kruber is fine.
Others need nerf.
For the sake of argument, olympic-class throw of a javelin among women comes out to 70mph upon release of a 600g javelin. Such throw contains about 216lb-ft of energy. This is comparable to the wimpier pistol round muzzle energies - for example 9x18mm Makarov produces about 212lb-ft at the muzzle. It’s substantially harder hitting than a .22LR but still substantially weaker than a .38 special. Looks meh, right?
But then we can turn to mr. Cutler and see his measurements of historical reproduction bolts shot out of a moderate 160lb pull weight crossbow, which can be very well translated to medieval English war bows as well. His 85-ish gram bolts achieved speeds around 190mph and therefore energies of only 100ft-lb.
Then we can look at early 17th century muzzle loading muskets for comparison - like the Brown Bess for example. It shot chunks of lead .75 inches in diameter at speeds of 1300 to 1800 ft/s, which comes out at the lower end to 2500+lb-ft.
According to real life, the handguns our guys wield - even if they are generously underperforming compared to Brown Bess, should still massively outclass every other ranged and thrown weapon in the game. At least for unarmoured targets. Also that goes to show that javelins do indeed carry substantial amount of lethality compared to more historically accurate medieval ranged weapons like bows and crossbows.
So what we are dealing with here is the magic factor which effectively severs all kinds of real life parallels in favour of the cool.
“Free passage”, I meant there’s no slowdown. It becomes only an obstruction to sight and the enemy. The slowdown is kinda significant, I think.
And good point, @OrsonMaxwell, firearms are the only weapons that could compare in damage.
Regarding the “run-up” for throwing; we have a handgun that reloads in one second. XD We’re already unrealistic in many qualities, but what the game clearly seems to try and capture is a distilled “feel” of a weapon. If Javelins had 50 ammo but did the damage of a Swift Bow, they wouldn’t make any sense at all. It would feel wrong and weird. So instead we’ve got a very heavy projectile with a steep fall-off, and all of that energy is concentrated into a relatively small point.
Its cleave should be toned down slightly, but the weapons should remain viable. I’m in agreement with everyone that nerfs are needed, but I’m trying to be a counter-point here because most nerfs people seem to call for will make SotT and javelins garbage-tier. I’d really not like interesting content turned into memes.
Oh I made the argument in bad faith, I know very well the rule of cool trunks “realism”.
Uhhhm no. Maybe a tiny bit of ballistic shot, but damage-wise there is close to none.
Of course. Nobody is advocating for anything to be useless…
It has the steepest ballistic arc of any of Kerillian’s weapons.
Though the lack of damage-drop off is good, player. Throwing Axes should be the same way, shame they’re not.
SnD has mediocre reach and a weak frontal block. Its movement curve is also not as good as you might expect, which makes the reach issue worse. Makes it not great for picking out targets in a horde.
I’m defending SnD. Never though this day would come.
Thank you for spreading knowledge and being reasonable.
I’d like to add that the most important reason as to why Killing Shot is overpowered is safety. It’s the same reason why BW is. High dps and excessive safety combined with low risk and high uptime is not healthy for the game. BW and Sienna’s staffs scale just as well into Cata 3 because they have infinite effective cleave and compliment the meta of climbing animation abuse with hyperdensity.
With Deathknell, 20% Chaos or 20% Crit Power and finally the tag. The base attack speed is 0.6s for a Rapier full charge heavy.
This is a part of why WHC would honestly be fine without instant killing with light headshots. GK levels of single-target dps there.
The Javelin just needs less cleave. That’s it. Staggering a single CW with a completely single target weapon is an irrelevant meme in a horde game. The crits are no better than the Longbow’s crits.
That’s true but I’d argue it’s more valuable on a weapon that has infinite ammo and can afford to be spamming body shots in the first place. You can’t really get away with doing that on longbow on any class other than WS, so the longbow crit bodyshotting things is much less likely to actually come into effect.
Regardless Morai Hegs is still the prime culprit here and should be addressed before the javelins themselves. Fairly well agree with what you said regarding its stagger power, I wouldn’t want it bodyshot staggering CWs mostly because it dimishes what little stature the poor fellows have left and just looks a little silly. It’s probably not actually a major gameplay concern though.
I’ve started to disagree. After having used the Handgun in true solo it’s made me reflect on the snipers and realise how much I can fire them, including the Longbow, even if I don’t get that many headshots with them. Hit the easy headshots, spam on the hard ones in hordes (this is supposed to be what multi-shot weapons like Shade’s Volley Crossbow and Saltz’ BoP are for). Ammo efficiency is too good for how sustainable they are ammo-wise. Over-rewarding a single aspect of the gameplay (headshots) results in not many headshots being required (WHC demonstrates this because of how well Killing Shot averages out, particularly with high attack speed) and lets melee careers be ranged careers in the areas that matter.
I can also run 35% to 45% crit chance on Handmaiden, and if I really want use Quiver of Plenty because the other two on that row aren’t integral to Handmaiden. Snipers are op. Rip me in a few moments.
Off-topic: I had an idea for a Conservative Shooter nerf – Limit it to 1 proc per shot (so no getting multiple ammo back from getting multiple headshots with 1 shot by firing into a horde), make it work only on headshots vs specials (soft nerf really). That would make it follow its namesake at least (I’d exclude Huntsman’s passive from these changes). Then adjust ranged careers to have trait independent sources of ammo sustain, with at least two talents in their tree for ammo sustain.
Fair. It wouldn’t hurt it to lower its stagger on CWs if its bodyshot staggering without crits, would just make CWs less comical.
I’m just gonna say that I agree with OP. Not only elf, but there are so many broken dlc features at the moment that I crave to witness next BBB, but I am having a hard time actually expecting one droping anytime soon. Meanwhile I am losing my interest in V2, tired of SotT deleting everything on sight.
I don’t really have anything to add to all this, you know I agree with the sentiment. It’s a big part of why people calling javelins OP raises a big question mark for me. TBH I’m not 100% sure longbow ought to body shot with crits and no power investment either. It’s been nice to see the stagger talent rework mod tone down the power of crits a bit.
I’ve seen people defend the current state of Morai Hegs which confuses me a little. Especially with how abuseable it becomes in, well, quite a lot of different party comps just seems like quite a bit too much when you look at how impactful crits are generally.
Moonfire, cloak of mist and Sister of the thorn generally could all use a nerf
Javelin can use some toning down too on a couple aspects but I’d definitely wanna retain how smooth it feels in play; don’t wanna end up with another throwing axe.
Yea, elf is a “bit” overpowered 
I think Shade should not have access to Monfire Bow and Javelin. That making crossbow and Bloodfletcher unusable options.
Monfire Bow recovery speed should be reduced, and tied to max ammo in such way that Waystalker will have the highest recovery that equal of current recovery speed. This way Monfire Bow still be an option for Handmaiden (but you will have to take more ammo talent), and will be less powerfull on SotT.
Javelin should have lesser reload speed, somewhere near throwing axes.
I personally want to see the hideous reloading animation fixed - it hurts my eyes then rats poke me down and elf gets all the green circles. Definitely OP.
Especially combined with Eternal Guard, or whatever the infinite block passive is called. They make him so much safer than his somewhat-squishy self is intended to be under many circumstances! It’s a great class concept, he has a great identity, but he’s probably even more overloaded as a career than SotT - the latter could probably be balanced with just numbers tweaks, but you can’t tweak the numbers on insta-kills and perfect block against lights.
Nope, no more nerf. Nerf is no fun.
Play Recruit.
Well that’s an extremely subjective statement being passed off as fact. To me overpowering the highest in game difficulty, not having to be strategic or work hard for the victory is anti fun. Judging by this thread I’m not at all alone in that.
Let’s take an extreme example as a thought experiment. If one class had an Ult on a 30 second cooldown that immediately killed every enemy in a 50 m radius, would you still consider it wrong to nerf that? If not, then it’s not that you’re against nerfs generally, but that you don’t think anything currently in the game is overpowered enough to warrant a nerf. Which is fine but it’s a not a very helpful thing to add to the thread unless you actually explain why these things aren’t overpowered.
If you would still be against a nerf in that extreme example, well we probably can’t reconcile our view points and there’s nothing more to discuss.
Eternal Guard is cool but it only applies to frontal attacks. When surrounded WHC dies faster than most careers. It also won’t apply to a lot of attacks. The angle is fairly narrow as well. I do agree that infinite scaling stuff like that is bad, but this specific one doesn’t really let WHC cheese anything, so I’m not bothered by it that much. WHC is still as squishy as is intended, and can still get pushed and then killed even if they maximise Eternal Guard’s usage.
It just seems to stack so well with his insta-kills that combined they seem stronger than their individual attributes would suggest. I’m watching your latest Deathwish Cata True Solo with WHC right now, and I was noticing how often while kiting just basic Clan Rats in the finale that you could switch from blocking into attacking, and it occurred to me how well they stack. Most characters can’t block as casually in this situation, and it makes him notably more resistant to minor chip damage in certain situations.
It’s not an auto-win, but the two traits are highly complementary.
Incidentally, great run. You make it all look easy and planned, even that Blightstormer tornado. XD