Elf needs a nerf

I never was very skilled when it comes to judging if someone is trolling or just not very good to form a coherent opinion.

The 800k hours played on WHC, the chad talk, and the paragraph about the treatment and evaluation of engis makes me wonder which one it is in this case.

Anyway, presuming you just wrote this sleepdrunk at 4am. I dont get the hate for Jav, unless you talk about sub cata difficulties. The reason its not worth talking about Legend, or even champ, is that hero power isnt a given. If you end up with 650 power in champ, for whatever reason, weapons are all op. Krubers bloody repeater can onhit specials there and wont ever run out of ammo, because of the not existing special density. When talking about balancing for Legend, I can already see the vault farmers having bloodfoam coming out of their mouth, eyes, and ears.

On cata the only silly part about Javs is the massive cleave. About four times as much as handgun is a just a tiny tad bit much. If its supposed to be elgis shotgun, we need some different changes. For an elgi weapon it also needs a surprising amount of properties to headshot kill special(, which is more than zero).

If you take Elgis Longbow as benchmark, which needs no breakpoints to kill cata specials with a headshot, has no funny arch you need to come to terms with, and enough of a max ammo size to not run out unless you start shooting thick air, jav is fine if, again, the cleave values get fixed. (Btw. Thumbs up for making me look like Iam fine with a sniping weapon with low to no reaload is fine to not need breakpoints for killing cata specials to the head. Hint: Its absolutely not.)

Moonfires silly breakpoints, Waystalkers wavedelete=true volley, and SoTT are a much bigger problem atm, than Jav ever was.

About the last paragraph. Thats kind of the point of this thread. FK turns into a range career with extras when armed with a Nuclear Bow. When a weapon does something like that, without the help of passives and Talents, something is wrong. I couldn’t say jav does the same.


I would like to politely disagree and say it is unwise to just shrug off 2 of the 3 most popular non-modded difficulties in the game.
Because, the same arguement can be turned all the way around and said “Cata shouldn’t even be considered when balancing things because it is a DLC difficulty that was intentionally made for people who want things to be harder than they were originally intended”. This statement would obviously be false, I am just using it as a clear example.


All of this so much yes. Javs are whatever, elevated to silly levels mostly by Morai Hegs. Only thing I’d add is their melee attack might do too much boss damage especially combined with stuff like CoM. Haven’t really played around with that aspect extensively though.


And i am saying most of those conditions are a joke really.

Something like Waystalker lacking ammo below cata due to fewer specials and elites below cata for instance? Well…maybe if it wasnt also the case that other enemies are also much fewer and weaker too.

Team doesnt bring a ranged career but still gets by because SoT is OP? Well sh*t.

It shouldnt be? Most specials have very easy headshots and weapons like bows/handguns easily abuse them with conservative for infinite clear on that front. Shade and Handmaiden ran longbow before moonbow doing exactly that without issue.

Meanwhile ranged careers in general have easy to use ways to infinitely sustain ammo, all of them do.

How is the dodge limit shitty? It has 3 which is pretty normal with a 20% dodge boost, elf glaive or even the spear are considered quick 2handers and they do not have that much plus less stamina.

so the new big hammer lacks a bit of pure horderclear but is good for smaller groups and elites? How is this a problem? ‘’


Shiet, got his big hammer and one of the smaller ones mixed up, my bad.

End of edit.

Except a low ammo cap and it cant really be reloaded in a fight the way you could a longbow/moonbow. Plus it needs 2 shots to kill a packmaster, even with a headshot. (cata)

Below cata? Fatshark hasnt balanced for below for years.

But i digress, the only exceptional things about the javelins are the stagger (overtuned against some specific targets) and the cleave, the latter here which is already inconsistent on cata where any horde has armor or shields normally.

Either which blocks the javs and depletes your ammo unless playing SoT/waystalker who can get around it.

You sir, are…not a gentleman.

Kicking people for playing a class is purely ego on your part. If they act or play like assholes by shooting you or taking all the supplies? Sure kick em, but just for playing normally?

Learn to chill.

…You´re complaining that BoP doesnt have infinte shooting? Have you tried putting scrounger on it and running the 30 talent called “The Unending Hunt”?
Use that into a horde, get like 50% cooldown refunded instantly and also the crit boost that applies to ranged weapons, proceed to gun down most of a horde while also getting ammo back.

That´s my go-to build for whc, prefer the shorter cooldown and team utility.

But also, WHC is pretty much the most overpowered career after SoT in skilled hands so you kicking engineers while flexing your playing it is kinda…eh.

Its may be rude i agree, but if they want play as a team they don’t play engineers.

Im tired of playing with engineers because 99% of the time ( and i dont exagerate ) they are dead weight and its not like a newbie or about skill, i mean no matter you skill is, i’m glad to carry/assist newbies, but they perfectly know their class is useless and still want to play it.

The design of engineer is awful , its full selfish gameplay, no value for team except for dps, dont share space, take a whole corridor for himself and friendly fire all day long.

Its like flamethrower dwarves, everyone hates them but still playin’ with because "hey i don’t care of making my mates blind or friendlky fire "

You’ve made a lot of mistakes in this commentary. Let me fix that for you.

Much better :ok_hand:. No need to thank me.


There is nothing inherently wrong with engineer from a team perspective relative to other careers, he doesnt drain heals and he isn’t picky with potions. Skilled one that got the awareness&positioning is always a welcome addition to any cata team.

He doesnt have the awareness or positioning? He´d still be useless if playing another ranged career since they also just drop dead or get chunked constantly if caught out.

How dafq can someone skilled be deadweight? Everything else aside that minigun is good for both hordeclear and boss DPS which is…like what some careers dedicate entire builds to while sacrificing nearly everything else. Some drop everything for anti elites or something instead.

Engi? His ability is a 3rd weapon and he can customize his loadout to cover all bases pretty easily, the only problem is that keeping his minigun pressure up is too much of a chore that detracts from gameplay&fun.

Pretty much all elf classes…and bounty hunter, and huntsman, pyromancer and grailknight too for the first bit. Zealot is also extremely selfish really.

Everyone dislikes something.

Moonbow, hagbane,javelins, shade, SoT.

Trollhammer, flamethrower, masterwork pistol.

Bounty hunter.

Any Wizard flooding the screen with repeat and massive blasts of blinding fire, also, FF damage.

Kruber is probably the only one that doesnt get much hate, except people kicking huntsmen “because the class is weak&useless”. Saw a talk about it on reddit.


kruber no hate? grailnight? nobrainer press F class? hmm

No, ammos should be a problem. Or get a bit ""clunky “” like throwing axe with no stagger, no punchthrough laser-like .

Longbow doesnt stagger everything, longbow makes you slower and more risky, longbow doesnt make coffee for you and create rain for your potatoes, and its still a very powerfull tool.

I put illimited ammos amoung many of the top quality javelins/moonbows have. This is obviously not the only reason.

Yeah, the 2H hammer for priest is damn slow, like all heavy hammers.

And its an huge flaw itself, because you are already a turtle playing warrior priest . Still a decent weapon with the burst on heavies but i’m not an huge fan of it and thats perfectly illustrate the flaws that i’m talking about. In my country we have a proverb : you cannot have both the butter and the money of the butter .

Low ammo cap but still can solo at distance a boss or horde without commiting yourself because of infinite ammos, stagger and punchthrough seems fair enough .

I’m not jealous of not having infinite ammos, i want to play with a decent skill curve and not broken dlc which make people think they can do cata or legend with bad routines because the classes they play show them a brainless way to solve problems.

Of course some do mind this :sweat_smile:

Its just much less than say bounty hunters or elves by far i think… and if i dont remember that reddit poll all too wrong.

I mean, WHC may not have a floor on the level of brainless but id guess that around half a brain and suddenly he´s steamrolling enemies. Playing him is very forgiving for how well he scales to difficult content.

Like, he can build to oneshot cata CW´s with a charged rapier headshot on a crit…That´s on the level of Krubers exe sword but the Rapier is just all around better.

Still more braincells and teamwork needed than elgi ranger or elgi dlc witch but yes, its very newbie-friendly.

WHC is in my opinion the best class in the game so i wont deny it : its very VERY strong.

But at least, everything in his kit favor the teamplay, from marks to his unlimited stam vs trash to maintain hordes away, the crit bonuses for the team etc…

Grail knight may be “nobrainer” , you can play hundreds hours as elgi ranger and still dont know how to manage hook rats in melee with a dodge because you wont ever need to do so, while the GK will.

Elgi ranger is kinda useless without some brains though, i´d basically put her on par with WHC in terms of skill requirement to be functional. Since without that half brain she´ll just die in any melee, constantly get flanked&die and probably miss all her shots too.

Well undeniably so, he may be a singularly great powerhouse all by himself but indeed, he does have some rather massive teamboosting components even when running fervency.

…Well yea? Of course you´ll be much more prone to learning to deal with the things you are exposed to rather than the things you aren’t. Rather, it´d be stranger if you learned to deal with something you dont encounter.

If i had to name a skill i´d suspect ranged careers to pick up on before melee only ones then it´s overall awareness, not just looking at the enemies directly infront or on the sides but all over the terrain.

That because the shooters often need to deal with specials that appear just about anywhere, often far away too. Meanwhile the melee are more prone to tunnel vision only focusing on smashing their way through the front.

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On the elf being noob-friendly; I’d say most of her weapons are fairly easy to use. They’re usually fairly effective even just spamming light attacks, and then heavy for elites. Most high-damage output weapons on other characters have some nuance or require specific patterns and well-timed strikes with a few obvious exceptions like dual-hammers, or axe and falchion.

Where things get tricky for newer players, is they don’t understand the importance of stamina, stagger, and dodging. I see new elf players on legend competitively going for a ton of kills, and then going down to trash enemies, or constantly taking damage, and using up healing.

In the quoted dev post about SotT, there’s mention that high-skill players will be able to use the class to great efficacy, that’s because DPS classes all have a high skill ceiling when it comes to avoiding damage. I play legend without curse resist, without bonus health, always using shallya for temp health generation, or natural bond, because I rarely take damage or use healing. When you’re at the level where you’re comfortable on Cata (which is supposed to be the most difficult) it should come as no surprise that DPS classes seem OP. Skilled players can avoid damage while still putting out tons of damage. If you’re good at avoiding damage and you play a tank, you’re just limiting your damage output.


I do agree that the elf´s weapons are very straightforward, and that the other characters often have one if not several weapons that demand more care but i think the pattern of “use heavy vs armor” is about as common as it gets.

Even for a more complex weapon like Krubs halberd the basic anti armor operation is really just heavy stab towards the head.

Elf has more players in general i think but i suspect the pattern of newbies is similar regardless of actual character though, game hardly explains anything after all.

Imma hold you up there though, Fatshark calls her a support. :triumph:

Well its probably true that a DPS operating optimally does…well, more damage than a tank, i think its worth noting that a tank has an advantage when it comes to actually dealing damage.

Tanks often pack a lot of CC.

For a squishy elf like say waystalker you are in deep sh*t if several elites start chaining running attacks at you with some normal mobs in between and you cant shoot for whatever reason. Sooner or later you will run outa dodges and run outa stamina and you cant even interrupt the whole affair.

A beefy Unchained or Ironbreaker though? Worst comes to worst they’ll trade a hit to deliver a high stagger attack to break the opposing formation and then just stomp the survivors down. Takes a special or two to really put any heat on them.

Javs lose pretty much all of their vaunted cleave when faced with shields or armor too though, sure they still hit and damage something probably but for a singular target they’re just a worse longbow.

Except for CW staggering…

My bad :rofl:

I´ll remember that the next time i see a Zealot go down from excess masochism…i mean holy fervor.

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Obviously, as I have to state several times over, I’m aware that the SotT is OP, but that doesn’t mean the devs don’t have a valid point. I think it applies to all DPS; in the hands of the highly skilled players, they have a much higher skill ceiling and potential.

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Main problem with SotT as a support is how inept her active supporting abilities are.
Warrior priest really puts to perspective how badly her supporting kit was realized.

Simplest comparison are their Ultimates.
Sister of the Thorn - small wall of bushes with 6 seconds (10 seconds on talent) duration, that blocks line of sight for both enemies AND players, slows down players trying to move throught it, and worst of all, has infinite cleaving mass, completely eating any melee attack performed by players standing near it. So the most optimal use for it is to put it at a respectable distance from the party to avoid harming your frontliners. And because it is so short-lived, you can’t just throw it down and forget about it, because enemies will come flooding in anyway.
Warrior Priest - a 5 second (8 with a talent) invulnerability effect, that also explodes on expiration, dealing some damage to nearby enemies. Downsides - none. The only thing you need to worry about with is not getting enough value out of it.

Then add on top of that the primarily offensive talents she has, and there is not really much reason to play her as a support, because DPS gets more results with less footwork.


Only thing I hate about elves is when they spam their ults for no reason except to suck up kills. SoTT doing every random stormvermin or marauder as soon as its recharged (even if characters are currently in melee with it) and Waystalker just depopulating a whole area with 6/8 arrow ults (though if they need ammo they at least have a reason). Aside from that I have no problem playing with them as long as there’s not too much FF.

I find Huntsman the most annoying because they seem to be by far the best at taking down every special and elite before anyone else has anything to do with it. RIP if you rely on THP on kill. Don’t know why anyone would call it a weak class, now with spear and shield it’s incredibly durable, good at farming THP, and has a lot of melee killing power.

Engineer is fine as long as you get a player who understands and is competent enough to still be in melee a decent amount of time. Unfortunately that’s fairly rare. I play Engineer in cata just fine though.

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Get real, ammo hasn’t been a problem even for non ranged classes in an incredibly long time. If you manage to actually run out even on a melee class with CS crossbow/longbow/handgun etc either you’re just not very good or literally nobody else in your team killed a single special that match. Throwing axes are awful and there’s a good reason they never get used.

You should actually read the @Radina.Shevu post I was agreeing with. It does this amazing thing wherein they actually compare weapons based on stats and breakpoints rather than gut feeling, and they show why, cleave aside, javelin is generally a worse sniping weapon than base longbow.

People need to focus on SotT and Moonbow which are the genuinely problematic elements right now.


“crossbow/longbow/handgun” yes, the most meta ranged weapons because they’re the only real ammo efficient ranged weapons for non ranged focus classes, good job sherlock.

only few weapons in the game are not depleted in a blink because of how snipe-like they are designed for and guess what ? Its actually the meta weapons .

Let’s talk about “git gud” in cata or even legendary with BoP or Repeater as a non ranged class like Zealot/WHC and try to do the same job in horde + elites and boss like javelins or moonbow with shadow or maiden, i’m watching.

Spoil : You’re out of ammo because theses weapons are designed for a purpose with advantages and flaws and not jack-of-all-trad-ish infinite laser guns aoe dot stagger cleave plasma rails.

Its precisely why i dont play BH in cata because i dont want to be stucked in a weapon build meta-ish or feeling my bop are coughing like kruber’s grandma

But yes, longbow is very potent, i never said its bad.

The Javelin also has the immense benefit of being one of the best anti-elite/monster melee weapons available, basically meaning there’s no downside to taking Sword/Sword over Sword/Dagger or Dagger/Dagger. And Sword/Sword is pretty much the most incredibly easy horde clearing THP farming weapon around.

Genuinely according to whom? WS and Shade both make SoTT look like a trash class if played well