A moderate approach to balancing javelin

[anomer]

Prompted by the call contained in recent patch preview to express opinions, I would implore you to take a reserved approach in nerfing Javelin to avoid another case of making the weapon too bad and unusable – the fate that befell the moon bow.

While Javelin certainly requires adjustments, they should be made in a way that preserves weapon identity, its niche and individual use case.

Reducing both armor damage and significantly reducing cleave runs a considerable risk of making the weapon worse than its alternatives in every scenario and making it simply bland and unfun.

For comparison, we can look at Throwing Axes, which share majority of characteristics with Javelin. The significant difference here is that they don’t have cleave but they do have higher armor damage. Even in that form, they are largely considered one of the weaker weapons.

I would suggest reducing either Javelin’s armor damage or cleave, while preserving the other as essential part of its weapon identity.

If that adjustment would not be sufficient, I would suggest looking at other areas, such as:

• Reducing ammo reserve from 1+2 to 1+1 – thus making Javelins less spammable, making misses punishing and increasing skill requirement of using weapon effectively.

• Reducing range by making parabolic trajectory more extreme – it would make sense from flavor perspective as Javelin is a very heavy thrown weapon and from gameplay perspective it would reduce Javelin’s effectiveness at range and increase skill requirement of using weapon effectively.

• Removing armor damage from melee attacks – this is non-essential feature that increases power and versatility of Javelin.

• Changing Javelins to use regular ammo – in the end I would even consider removing “infinite” aspect of the weapon. In my opinion it would be better to have Javelin as strong, fun, yet limited in number weapon, rather than it being weak, bland and unfun, while also being “infinite”.

To reiterate main point: reducing both armor damage and significantly reducing cleave runs a considerable risk of making Javelin bland, unfun and weak. Thus we should apply only one of this adjustments, while preserving the other aspect as essential part of its weapon identity and possibly looking at other areas to make the weapon balanced.

I hope this post will spark an open, respectful and measured discussion. Cheers!

[Adelion]

Let’s start at the end:

@anomer

I hope this post will spark an open, respectful and measured discussion.

Ha, respectful discussions surrounding balance? Would be a new one ^^’

@anomer

I would implore you to take a reserved approach in nerfing Javelin to avoid another case of making the weapon too bad and unusable – the fate that befell the moon bow.

Bad example. The Moonfire Bow adjustment is out long enough already so that we know by now that the Moonfire Bow is a very good and useable weapon up to and including Cataclysm. Why you never see it then? There are different possibilities: People play to often with their friends which creates a “limited” impression of the games balance and what is used. Secondly, Javelins are just so oppressively strong that most other choices are mundane. Nerf Javelin and MFB will be used more often. Actually, I have recently seen an uptick in usage for Cataclysm games. Pretty much since they added the blue colour effect.

@anomer

Even in that form, they are largely considered one of the weaker weapons.

Because people sleep on Throwing Axes. When you had at least once a player who took the two hours of time needed to learn beginner level of Throwing Axes, then you know what the weapon is capable of.

@anomer

I would suggest reducing either Javelin’s armor damage or cleave, while preserving the other as essential part of its weapon identity.

As long as we don’t know the degree of reduce it is hard to say if both are justified. After suffering so long from Javelin spam I would say yes. If it has to be either than FS should focus on nerfing armor damage instead of cleave.

@anomer

Reducing ammo reserve from 1+2 to 1+1 – thus making them Javelins less spammable, making misses punishing and increasing skill requirement of using weapon effectively.

Does only change so much as long as ammo traits still affect the weapon. Scrounger and Conservative Shooter should not recover ammo as it is a magical weapon.

@anomer

Reducing range by making parabolic trajectory more extreme – it would make sense from flavor perspective as Javelin is a very heavy thrown weapon and from gameplay perspective it would reduce Javelin’s effectiveness at range and increase skill requirement of using weapon effectively.

Before this, they should add a ranged damage drop-off for Javelins. Right now, given sufficient distance Javelin bodyshot does more damage than Longbow Headshot. And hitting with Javelin at large distance isnt really difficult.

@anomer

Removing armor damage from melee attacks – this is non-essential feature that increases power and versatility of Javelin.

Wouldn’t really change anything. The melee attack is extremely good to kill single horde enemies coming to you while you range or for killing monsters. But most people are not brave enough to use it against armored enemies.

@anomer

Changing Javelins to use regular ammo

Still not sure how this would play out. It could work. Then again, I would say infinite ammo is one of its largest identities.

No, the issue why Javelin is regularly picked over Longbow on Cataclysm is a different one: Mobility.

• If I want to snipe specials on Cataclysm, the most difficult issue is during hordes. Would I pick Longbow or Javelin. Under stress? Sure answer is Javelin. I have no zoom in, reducing my field of vision. I have no slow down during wind-up time. I have better and more dodges. Only three Javelins?Not an issue with a reload shorter than a finger snap and again no slowdown during reload. Placing two Javelins in a special body and reloading is still easier than placing a headshot with longbow.
• If I want to Run&Gun it will also be Javelin. Why? Because no slowdown. I can be in front of the group, spam the Javelin all the time and reload while passing the now empty fields as I killed ambients before. With Longbow this does not work as the wind-up to aim does slow down and the normal LMB does not enough damage. Javelin can be spammed without slowing down and will therefore be spammed.
• Against Hordes? Javelin all the way due to the high cleave, even on Bodyshots. Though for hordes scoring headshots is easy enough that you can spam Javelin even more. And if a single horde enemy approaches just melee it. With Longbow you would have to switch.

All of this makes Javelin the best choice on most careers. Only combination which can easily top Javelins is Hagbane on Waystalker (another balance issue, forgotten under the horrors of Javelin).

So what Fatshark is going for, is to keep all those niches of anti-horde, sniping under pressure and run&gun playstyle. Just less effective. Still useable in all situations. A Jack of all trades and not a destroyer of all trades. Assuming they get the right values, this could work and has the benefit of not touching lower difficulties. Thinking about it the approach isn’t that bad assuming they nerf armor damage enough to remove the 1 SBS versus Stormvermins on Legend.

Though, I would still advocate for another balance approach (repeating it for the third time I think):

• Remove Javelin interaction with ammo traits/talents/passives so it can only be reloaded manually and will always have the same amount of ammo
• Double reload time
• Add slowdown while reloading down 50 % movement speed and dodge distance or less
• Increase Javelin ammo to 5 or 6

The result will be a sniping weapon which has advantages in pressure situations and which can occassionaly be used against ambients and hordes. But spamming is more discouraged as you waste valuable ressources. Also, you cant stay in front of the team all the time and leave a trail of devastation as the team has no at least a chance of catching up.

But I think the nerf from Fatshark actually works if it goes far enough. Pretty sure we will see an increase on Moonfire Bow afterwards with people shockingly finding out that it is actually good on Cataclysm. Pretty sure we will also see more Hagbane Waystalkers again which is bad …

[3Eternal]

@Adelion

Add slowdown while reloading down 50 % movement speed and dodge distance or less

to me it’s weird you can dodge while magicly create a javelin. maybe no dodge at all while reload to be in danger if you reload but nerfing movement speed will just make a bad feeling.

@Adelion

Remove Javelin interaction with ammo traits/talents/passives so it can only be reloaded manually and will always have the same amount of ammo

Yes, please fatshark !

[Adelion]

@3Eternal

but nerfing movement speed will just make a bad feeling.

Only if you spam against ambients and run&gun which is the purpose of the change. During horde situations where you are more stationary, it will be less an issue as you might stand still anyway.

[Frostysir]

@Adelion

Bad example. The Moonfire Bow adjustment is out long enough already so that we know by now that the Moonfire Bow is a very good and useable weapon up to and including Cataclysm. Why you never see it then?.."

No, the example is perfectly viable because the moonbow is just a lazy longbow alt at this point. You need to headshots to kill things without wasting ammo but in return you dont suffer ammo issue´s for failing to do so. Just a likely lack of effective ranged uptime which doesnt really hurt below cata. For cata? Only time anyone uses moonbow is when they just wana reliably kill a special sometimes but otherwise stay permanently in melee or play piercing waystalker.

Do we need javs to be another flavor of this too? Moonbow already feels dull, fancy glows or not.

@Adelion

Because people sleep on Throwing Axes. When you had at least once a player who took the two hours of time needed to learn beginner level of Throwing Axes, then you know what the weapon is capable of.

Sure a skilled user can snipe multiple stormvermin a bit faster than someone with a crossbow or a gun. Doesnt make it particularly amazing though given a slayer could just grab a big hammer and smash half a patrol around once actually in melee.

@Adelion

Does only change so much as long as ammo traits still affect the weapon. Scrounger and Conservative Shooter should not recover ammo as it is a magical weapon.

Scrounger is already bad unless you dont mind RNG and reloading a damn lot, and if you cut ammo down severely and force reloads nonstop to cut horde clear plus a significant cleave reduction? The weapon identity (hyperdense/conga line chaff clear) is kinda gone and its a longbow alt for real.

@Adelion

Placing two Javelins in a special body and reloading is still easier than placing a headshot with longbow.

Skill issue for unless we are talking a special riding deep in a horde, at which point (in cata) javs might not do anything either given shields/armor. Otherwise, good longbow user can easily quickly shoot and switch back to melee faster than throwing two javs, very important with enemies in melee range.

@Adelion

The result will be a sniping weapon which has advantages in pressure situations and which can occassionaly be used against ambients and hordes. But spamming is more discouraged as you waste valuable ressources. Also, you cant stay in front of the team all the time and leave a trail of devastation as the team has no at least a chance of catching up.

A slowdown on reload isnt a bad idea as a nerf, coupled with some cleave reduction, removal of body armor damage, damage falloff + more noticeable throwing arch. This is effectively toning it down without killing it.

But severe hits like yours all combined? Those changes would effectively kill any and all user enjoyment and the weapon would be worse than moonbow. People would only pick that or probably back to longbow again. As for hagbane stalkers…ahaha…ehm Whistles innocently dont worry, majority of the playerbase never figured this out and still insists that its bad.

[Adelion]

@Frostysir

But severe hits like yours all combined?

I don’t understand this comment. The only thing my changes target are the reload. Nothing else. I even increase the ammo to soften the impact. Most of the Javelin identity stays the same, only that it can not be spammed anymore. On the other hand:

@Frostysir

coupled with some cleave reduction, removal of body armor damage, damage falloff + more noticeable throwing arch.

You are suggesting changes to three to four different ideas, effectively making it a different weapon. I am not particularly against it. However, I think that your suggested changes is a lot more severe than the measly slowdown changes I suggest. So what do you consider Javelins identity? Spammy spam-alot? Then yea, my change is more drastic. A high damage projectile effective against pretty much everything? Then your change is more drastic.

@Frostysir

Skill issue for unless we are talking a special riding deep in a horde, at which point (in cata) javs might not do anything either given shields/armor. Otherwise, good longbow user can easily quickly shoot and switch back to melee faster than throwing two javs, very important with enemies in melee range.

You can call this a skill issue if you want. Doesnt change the point that Javelins is far easier to use in pressure situations to the longbow for the given reasons. The people who can reliably headshot specials in this situation are not that numerous and that is one reasons why Javelins are so favoured on Cataclysm.

@Frostysir

Scrounger is already bad unless you dont mind RNG and reloading a damn lot, and if you cut ammo down severely and force reloads nonstop to cut horde clear plus a significant cleave reduction?

I did not suggest significant cleave reduction. In fact, I say leave Javelin exactly as it is but make the reload more troublesome. So that players have to decide when to use it the best, instead of all the time. Also, Scrounger might be bad. The point is that no ammo trait/perk should work. Scrounger is just one of them. There is also a point of Sott having guaranteed crits talent.

@Frostysir

No, the example is perfectly viable because the moonbow is just a lazy longbow alt at this point. You need to headshots to kill things without wasting ammo but in return you dont suffer ammo issue´s for failing to do so. Just a likely lack of effective ranged uptime which doesnt really hurt below cata. For cata? Only time anyone uses moonbow is when they just wana reliably kill a special sometimes but otherwise stay permanently in melee or play piercing waystalker.

You are making a different case than the OP though. OP said that Moonfire Bow is unusable on Cataclysm. And that I say is wrong. I see the weapon used on Cataclysm to great effect (and it does not need headshots to do so). If it is a worse version of Longbow or not was not the point of what I have said.
If one want to argue. The fact that Moonfire Bow does not need to manage ammo is a reason alone that it should never be as effective as Longbow. Basic game design rules. And as mentioned Moonfire Bow is an occasional run&gun mostly bodyshots kind of weapon. The identity is different from Longbow which focus on headshots and special sniping. If that Moonfire Bow identity is good or needed is again a different discussion.

But focus on main point: Moonfire Bow is useable and balanced for Cataclysm.
Second main point: I suggest Javelin being adressed by making reload more difficult.

[OxygenCrimson]

There are two main gripes with Briar Javelin: spammability and raw power. Either of those has to be removed entirely, but not necessarily both.

To remove the power you actually have to reduce both cleave and armor damage (to the point SV cannot be 1SBS on Legend), which is what Fatshark seems to have decided and it is very much fine. With such spammability you will still be able to reliably remove many enemies.

To reduce spammability it would be best to make it limited-ammunition weapon. Even if you reduced the regeneration speed to the point of being on par with Throwing Axes, it would be still too much for this weapon because unlike Throwing Axes, it has to many other powerful properties and very high range.

It has to be either one of those, otherwise you’ll end up with a weapon that is either unfun or just strill as strong and disruptive as it was. But while the former is acceptable (since you will still have many great choices on Kerillian), the latter is not (as it impacts your teammates).

I also noticed that you posted this same exact thread on Reddit. If nerf to Briar Javelin hurts you so much you are willing to spam, I believe you might be heavily biased on the topic.

[Frostysir]

@Adelion

I don’t understand this comment. The only thing my changes target are the reload. Nothing else. I even increase the ammo to soften the impact. Most of the Javelin identity stays the same, only that it can not be spammed anymore. On the other hand:

The changes i propose would give the weapon a clear downside, and tone down some of the excess power, without killing the enjoyment of it. Same thing but weaker, a nerf. But killing the ammo uptime and the ability to move and throw? That would just remove any fun the weapon has unless one significantly buffs the weapons power in return, otherwise the upsides will never feel worth being constantly being slowed or having little free ranged uptime.

@Adelion

You are suggesting changes to three to four different ideas, effectively making it a different weapon.

No it remains the same on cata at least, an excellent chaff clear but it also needs to headshot to be good against armor (skilled use reward) and it doesnt have the same extreme range as longbow/moonbow for distinction.

Your changes would both cripple the mobility of use plus the ammo economy, that´s creating a different weapon entirely.

@Adelion

and that is one reasons why Javelins are so favoured on Cataclysm.

Lets be real, Overall the Javs are more satisfying to use and they are currently a whole lot more powerful in most situations compared to…all, all the other options. That´s why they are the ones most used. Its not about longbow or moonbow needing a bit of getting used to the aim.

@Adelion

I did not suggest significant cleave reduction…"

My bad, still, i do stand by the idea that killing the reload/mobility will be a much more severe detriment to weapon enjoyment than anything else short of crippling damage completely. Weapon has to be fun to use too otherwise there is no point in it existing.

@Adelion

If one want to argue. The fact that Moonfire Bow does not need to manage ammo is a reason alone that it should never be as effective as Longbow. Basic game design rules. And as mentioned Moonfire Bow is an occasional run&gun mostly bodyshots kind of weapon. The identity is different from Longbow which focus on headshots and special sniping. If that Moonfire Bow identity is good or needed is again a different discussion.

It shouldnt overlap this hard with longbow to start with, having them be too similar just forces a situation where one is always better overall. As for run&gun use…i´d much rather have a standalone functional ranged weapon whose main purpose isnt being a melee pull.

@Adelion

Moonfire Bow is useable and balanced for Cataclysm.

Usable? One could argue that elf 1handed axe is useable too, doesnt make it good or fun in any way but it can still be used sure.

As for moonbow, Its not balanced as a standalone ranged weapon no, it overlaps badly with longbow and is significantly weaker in output with the one perk being that even if you miss all your shots you wont be unable to shoot if you survive the next 20 seconds anyway.

[Adelion]

So, you define Javelin’s weapon identity solely by the spammability?

[Frostysir]

Soley? No, but problem is, a large part of the identity, at least the healthier parts of it, hinges on chaff clear which in turn relies on conservative shooter (CS) headshots. Badly chunk the chaff clear away by dropping ammo or cleave and the weapon is just a hollow copy of the longbow, like the moonbow, rather than its own thing.

Bad copies should not be encouraged. And there´s a clear majority of players that find moonbow’s current state to be extremely lackluster so a result like it would be bad. Two DLC weapons that play like cheap copies is real bad.

…

@Adelion

Then you define it by spam against hordes. Or is chaff ambient? Because most people don’t take the time to headshot non-armored ambients.

There isnt much need to, ambients are usually not very abundant so you throw 1-2 spears and hit a couple of targets then move towards the next few standing somewhere else. Moonbow does this just fine too.

@Adelion

With the reload change, you can still use 5 super-powered Javelins before reloading. So, you have to be more mindful. But I agree to disagree. You want a weapon you can spam. I want a versatile weapon which punishs spam.

I might be wrong but you didnt write anything about buffing javs to go with those slowdowns so its just current javs but vastly clunkier, still works badly on shields or armor bodyshots in terms of ammo efficiency.

@Adelion

You want a weapon you can spam. I want a versatile weapon which punishs spam.

Thats longbow or moonbow really, works on everything, one needs a little more aim than the other but not really if going for optimal use from both…

@Adelion

Longbow is the only weapon built around the idea of headshotting. Neither Javelin nor MFB are designed around this idea. So if you insist on using these weapons the same as Longbow, they will obviously fall short. They are not bad copies. You just don’t find the playstyle they target interesting for yourself.

On the contrary, both weapons were tailored around headshotting to an extent. Moonbow has like 30%? of its damage locked behind headshots meaning a lot of breakpoints if you dont wana waste shots too badly and get a poor “per shot” yield + worse uptime.

Javelins meanwhile offers two options, run CS and headshot or you gona be stuck reloading nonstop. Most users do actually headshot a whole lot. Which is why a more severe throwing arch + damage falloff would do good in terms of differentiating from longbow/moonbow.

And i forgot to mention, but, SoT and crits for scrounger? She gets 2 per ability cast, and they stop at shields and armor all the same. Noticeable on bigger targets but far from enough to create a crazy ammo refund.

[Adelion]

Then you define it by spam against hordes. Or is chaff ambient? Because most people don’t take the time to headshot non-armored ambients.

With the reload change, you can still use 5 super-powered Javelins before reloading. So, you have to be more mindful. But I agree to disagree. You want a weapon you can spam. I want a versatile weapon which punishs spam.

Longbow is the only weapon built around the idea of headshotting. Neither Javelin nor MFB are designed around this idea. So if you insist on using these weapons the same as Longbow, they will obviously fall short. They are not bad copies. You just don’t find the playstyle they target interesting for yourself.

[souI23]

@anomer they over-nerfed Moonfire Now and now they over-nerfed Javelin too… Fatshark style